Varnish is a topic that I know has been covered to death on this site; however, it is time to strip off the old and put down the new on my toe rails and cockpit combing. This time I am considering using some of the new two part varnish from Awlgrip. Has anyone used it? Is there something out there that is better? I want to maintain the look that comes from laying down 10 coats of traditional varnish while sanding between the coats. Awlgrip is suposed to last 1 year or more before refinishing. Does it last that long? Does it look as good as traditional varnish?
Brightly finished teak on a Commander is like gold in the sun. I know varnish well, so I'll limit my comments to that and hope someone who knows the two-part product from Awlgrip will chime in too.
Schooner 96 by Interlux, proved to be the best performing product I've used lately. I've used them all, Captains, Epifanes, Pettit, Interlux, whatever, I've used it on my wood boats and/or on the Commander in the past. It seems from my recent experience (and the recent formulas on the market in 2008) that Schooner 96 gassed out and left the nicest final finish (unthinned out of the can).
I was surprised and pleased to know Robert DaPron, a professional boat restoration expert and friend of the Forum, having contributed many of the scans and brochures we share world-wide here, also spoke of the Schooner 96 as his favorite. So you have a hands-on hobbiest and a professional restoration guy both agreeing on the Schooner 96 as the best varnish.
As for the two-part (polyurethane), first of all Awlgrip has a very good name in marine circles. I also put a huge amount of stock in Interlux, having used many of their products over the years, but never having used Awlgrip. Awlgrip seems to be more heavily in the two-part poly business than the traditional varnish business, and I would expect their products to be first class. I am wondering if their polyurethane can be put down over top of a traditional coating of varnish? I say that, because varnish is pretty friendly to wood when it comes time for refinishing; you can sand it reasonably well, work it, and not erode into the wood. The polyurethane may not be so friendly, I don't know because I have never used it, although I've been tempted to do so for the better part of 30 years when I saw my first polyurethane finished Chris Craft Capri. There was a concern back then that the poly may not be as pliable and might split between planks, but that was just us guys shooting the breeze back then. The boat looked great.
The polyurethane may not give the golden color of varnish. It may be clear. It would be much stronger for abraision resistance, but I don't know if it would peel faster or whether or not it has the same UV protection; certainly Awlgrip tech guys can answer those questions.
I am wondering if you could sand your teak down to the degree necessary, perhaps use a stripper and get it all off, clean the surface with acetone to get rid of any oils that migrated to the surface, and then put that traditional first coat of thinned varnish on. I would wonder about putting on a couple coats of varnish, and topping it with a couple coats of the two-part polyurethane.
Since there is a likelyhood of having to touch up or repair some places, I now wonder what it would be like to sand through the hard top layer into the softer varnish layer underneath, and how it would look once repaired. Since I have never done this, being a traditional varnish guy all the way, I just offer this for "whatever it's worth"..
I'll send Robert a note and ask him to comment on this, because this is the sort of thing many people can benefit from knowing. Anyone having first hand experience please feel free to chime in!
Varnish and the care of our bright work is a common topic of conversation around here. There are 2 big reasons for this. The teak on our boats is a HUGE design que that identifies our boats as Chris Craft Commanders. And the maintenance required to keep it beautiful takes a lot of patience and persistence. I have not used the 2 part Awlgrip but, every other urethane clear wood finish I have heard of is prone to looking too thin, dulling and cracking. Then when (not if) this does occur you have a hell of a time removing it so you can do it all over again!!
I always use the beat varnish I can buy. My choice for years has been Epipnanes, applied over Smith's CPES for sealer and build coats. The 3 keys to any varnish job will always be SURFACE PREP, SANDING AND SUFFICENT FILM THICKNESS. Oh yea, and don't forget more and more sanding.
It is not a science and it helps if you love the smell of varnish. ( I think this comes along in the advanced stages of boatitis ). There simply is no short cut or easy way out. Use the tried and true material, varnish. It is the only way to go.
And Elvis loves it, too!
Just my opinion. BTW, some assume that Epiphanes is too expensive. I buy mine mail order from
www.jamestowndistributors.com
for about 28 bucks a qt.
I used 2 coats of epoxy followed by 4 coats of Bristol on mine. I was happy and it gets lots of compliments, but I see the imperfections. I am a full fledged rookie when it comes to this. The Bristol is a little less labor intensive I think, and less affected by the weather when applying, and it builds quick.
Hmm, not much to add here, Paul and Chris just about covered everything, but I will throw in my 2 cents.
Generally a 2 part poly will hold up better than traditional spar varnish but they do have some drawbacks as mentioned above. One is they are clear products, so you will not achieve your desired golden teak tone with a 2 part poly. Second, the poly tends to be a harder more brittle product. In some applications this can be a plus (flooring for example) but on wood with joints (such as your toe rails) the hardness of the product is a liability when there is wood movement between the joints. Once water migrates into a poly, the product fail at a faster rate than traditional spar varnish.
As for color, Paul hit on Awlgrips solution. Here is a cut and paste from the Awlgrips website. Interlux has their own version of a 2 part finish called Perfection.
"Ultimate Brightwork System
This system combines the color highlights of the
Awlspar Varnish to provide a traditional look, with the durability of the Awlbrite Clear in a fast recoat, relatively easy to repair combination of varnish and urethane coatings.
Both products allow two or more coats per day. The Ultimate System can be applied in seven to ten days. This union of Awlspar and Awlbrite Clear allows you to have all three: Easy application, traditional appearance, long term durability/low maintenance.
This system primes and seals the wood with Awlspar Varnish. The Awlspar bonds to the wood and supplies the traditional amber cast of fine varnish systems. Then the Awlspar is sealed with a full system of Awlbrite Clear Urethane."
Notice that Awlgrip has 2 varnish products, a spar varnish that they use as the base for build up coats and color and a 2 part poly that in this system is used as the top coat.
John, the thing that caught my attention in your post was your question about finding a varnish product that lasted for a year. You did not mention where the boat was stored or in what type of climate but in my opinion a traditional spar varnish with sufficient film thickness (read UV protection) should look stunning if it is coated yearly. Problems usually arise when the yearly coating is skipped, and then things do tend to rapidly deteriorate. Chris is right on, surface prep, sanding and film thickness. Film thickness is the key to fight UV breakdown.
r-
edit: name added
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Sep 23, 2008 5:21 PM
I'm not sure if it's true, but I heard the best varnish is always applied under a full moon, with a single hair badger brush, nude, while the dogs are barking. Also, in my experience, if you're varnishing outside you'll either discover a new species of insect or the parking lot will immediately fill with impatient people kicking up the dust.
I'm going to have to find time this fall to do my teak again. I've let it go a bit too long, and it will take more work this time, but hey, at least I'll be outside working on the boat! Sure beats mowing the lawn!
Okay guys, here are some images from Robert DaPron, showcasing his work (on his boat). That’s Robert in the back seat enjoying the ride!
The previous post from Robert is a very qualified opinion.
I think you can see now, that his hands-on experience with woodworking and varnish is to be taken very seriously! (See his photos below, just arrived)
We appreciate having a “Friend of the Forum” like Robert, and we also appreciate the huge contribution he has made to our Master Index Files by sharing so many original manufacturer brochures. Our files are full of this info, and they have been shared world-wide.
Robert- thanks for the beautiful photographs of your boat! What a sweetheart. What is she exactly? '24/26' maybe, just a guess (A120 power)? ABSOLUTLY GORGEOUS!
Here is a question for the varnish experts. I need to refinish my toerail as well as there is some peeling and cracking on the parts that get sunlight. Do you typically remove all the stanchions and other hardware, or work around them to sand and finish?
Many of the fasteners are actually bolted, and not all of them wanted to come out voluntarily, as I recall. Some were cut off flush and refastened close enough to cover the blemish.
Thanks for the kind words Chris. The boat is a 1928 24’ Chris Craft Model 3. Original power was a 104 hp Chrysler. I purchased the boat with no engine so I put in a modern v8. No regrets, the boat runs great – turn the key and go. Pics of its construction can be found here: http://community.webshots.com/user/rdapron
r-
I've been told in the past, perhaps toungue in cheek, that all you have to do to title the boat as an original "restored" boat is to keep one piece of original wood. Looking at your project quickly, it appears this is a total rebuild, so I'm curious about how much original wood (if any) you have in that boat?
Paul, to answer your question, I was able to save very little of the original boat. I saved the engine stringers and a few side frames and that’s about it. Everything else is new. For a title, all the state (at least my state of Washington) cares about is if the boat has had a title in the past. I make it a habit to get the title transferred before I start the work on the boat. That way I can show them pictures of the wreck that I just bought and there is little question as to the value. They in turn just shake their heads and wonder how many loose screws I have. I must admit, it is a valid question. Even though much of the boat has been recreated, it is still hull #2112 made in 1928. I have not added a boat to the original production numbers
I have decided to stick with traditional varnish, most likely Schooner 96. I began the project yesterday. Four guys with heat guns stripped it all off by noon this afternoon. When I left the boat today, they began hand sanding the wood with 80 grit to smooth down the scatches from the scraping.
I plan on beaching it out before varnishing. Question is, when to bleach? I suspect you sand it down smooth with 220, then bleach, then sand again to remove the raise grain. Is this the right thing to do?
By the way Robert, that is one hell of a nice boat. It looks like it is finished off like a piano. What kind of varnish?
I figure the work is going a lot smoother than my first impression when I saw the note about "scraping" and "80-grit" but that sure sounds like you are taking off a lot of wood. You don't want to end up with real thin bungs on top of fasteners, or exposed fasteners that had the bungs totally sanded down. I am sure the guys are giving the boat the care it deserves, but I just want to raise the flag of caution.
Ideally, the only wood that comes off is that light top layer intermixed with varnish or tarnished wood that must come off. In some cases, stripper is all that's needed to get that out, as the stripper dries out and leaves a sort of a light foam crust that can easily be sanded off, along with a little wood just to get things nice. As for bleaching and raising the grain, I didn't do it, as mine was light enough after sanding to do the job. I guess if you have some stained or discolored wood there, you can get a more uniform coloration with a bleach, but I would be concerned about the residue of bleach under the varnish.
Paul bleach has been used in the furniture restoration business for years to lightem wood or remove stains nothing to worry about just rinse with lots of water after using.
Hi Mark, The water based part of the operation is part of the concern with me, but naturally, it can be dried out. The salts are the other concern. The salt part of a chlorine kind of a bleach are able to be removed with a wash with water, but again, I just hate to be putting water on wood I'm going to be varnishing, because moisture under varnish leads to blistering.
When the sun comes out it will heat up the wood, and any moisture in there will want to go somewhere. The thought it that bone dry wood works best, and you can solve the moisture problem by simply avoiding the problem in the first place.
I have used bleach in the past on the king plank and cockpit surround on a 1957 17' Sportsman. After I did it, the boat sat for weeks before it ever finally gardot the first coat of varnish, because I was working on something else on the boat during that time. With teak toe rails, the tendency is to want to varnish sooner because the boats are outside lots of the time, and not sitting under cover in a shop. Naturally, if bleach is needed and used, it is imperative to let the wood dry out (for a week).
Chris, i am not certain, but I think all wood bleaches, whether they are the oxalic acid base, or otherwise, are water based, so in essence, when you are bleaching the wood you are adding a lot of moisture. My point is, if you plan to varnish that wood and have it out in the sun cooking hot, you darn well better let ALL that moisture get out before putting on a layer of varnish. Otherwise it is a formula sure to cause blisters.
