I'm big on originality, partially because I have original power now and revere it, and partially due to the fact of my ACBS background where original power is the right thing to do for investment grade boats. Personally, I like the provenance of a boat with original power, it adds a historic element for those who are keyed in to this sort of thing, but admittedly, once you close the hatch, it makes much less difference.
There have been many debates over the years about originality, and I admit some of these may have been a little too hotly debated, because there certainly ARE cases where a repower job is the logical way to go. Part of my issue is the fact that I don't like to see perfectly good hardware tossed out due to rationalization. The rationalization is sometimes due to the fact that the boat owner either doesn't have the stomach, cash, knowhow, or local facility to pull off a decent rebuild. Often it seems that the repower is "more convenient" and a silver bullet. Many times a repower can consume your entire boating season making the new motors adapt to the Commander hull, requiring the owner to resort to a sawsall rather than letting a good mechanic utilize tools in his shop he's used thousands of times before.
Rebuilding an American V8 motor is not rocket science. We have great reference threads here on the Forum showing how this is done, Mark Weller's 350Q rebuild is one such case. Many times the original power represents a big value, is easily rebuilt, can outlive the present owner, and will impart originality to the next owner, and perhaps the next owner(s) beyond.
Now, would you want to keep this particular boat in original condition? (Answer: "not unless you just won the $270,000,000 lottery".
How about this one? Yes, indeed. If this one needed new internal parts, it could probably be pulled, easily refurbished, re-installed, and run for another umpteen years. Are parts available? Of course they are. Just because you have to make more than one phone call doesn't really mean it's better to spend half a hundred thousand dollars for new motors and transmissions, unless of course, you have some cash you want to spend to help your severe case of boatitis.
And this one? Well actually this one will undoubtedly go on for many more years with the care it's received. It belongs to Tim Toth, original and untouched, and still running like new. In fact, this one probably still has the cross hatch marks on the cylinder walls, a feature not uncommon with 427 motors when they're pulled for rebuilding. Yes, they're that durable. Pistons or rings may need to be replaced, but those hard iron allow cylinder walls of a 427 are a value that will live on for a LONG time, and it may not be necessary to do a bore job for a major rebuild on a 427. On the 427 this needs to be checked becauase I sense some people and some mechanics seem to think a rebore job is a robotic thing to do, when in reality the bore may well be just fine.
Here is Jerry Namken's 454 coming out of his repowered 1964 Commander. It's possible he could be pulling the original Lincoln motors, had the previous owner decided to rebuild instead of puttin in these GM motors. Theyre good motors, but in reality, we have plenty of evidence (see the 431 Lincoln section of the MASTER INDEX, major rebuild in Germany) to prove the Lincolns have enough iron to withstand many rebuilds.
Now with Jerry's boat, the decision has to be made whether to rebuild these 454 motors that are already fitted to the boat, or to repower with new Crusaders, etc. Actually the decision has already been made, and it's a good one. Jerry found a pair of good take-out motors and transmissions, complete in total, for a sum of $2600. Now THAT is a sweet deal. It allows him to drop the new motors right in, and stay with a setup that has good parts availability.
Each owner must make the decision himself, based upon his own capability, the way he does his boating, location, condition of the motor under question, and cash reserves. There is no one set answer in this case.
Paul, I think part of the repower industry is using fear as a selling point. In reality, there is a huge machine and rebuilding industry in the United States, but they're not organized and they don't spend millions in advertizing like Crusader and Mercruiser does.
People see those artfully posed and gleaming images of new motors, and they think their problems will be over if they plunk down the change. In some instances, the problems are just beginning. I can't tell you how many people I know and have heard about, struggling with issues associated with re-engineering a boats power systems. It is ALWAYS going to be easier to pull out the old motor, and then place it back into the boat, precisely where it was engineered by the manufacturer to be.
Then there are the people who do it "half right", and adapt components to long blocks and essentially engineer their own systems. Some of these guys are capable of equalling the original engineering, but I suspect they are few and far between.
While the average guy may have trouble finding a source of components on the internet, the peoplee who run the machine shops know where to find the parts, and they do it all day, every day. While it may terrorize the average guy to think of his motor being torn apart, if you ever visit a large machine shop that does this as a matter of routine, these guys know exactly what they are doing, and they can't stay in business turning out a product that results in a recall. Iron does not deteriorate, except for surface corrosion. Once it's cast, it is as good as the day it was cast, unless it was frozen or severely overheated. Some people actually think seasoned blocks are better. I agree it's not in the spirit of sustainability and recycling a resource, to discard a perfectly good system.
With the diminishing use I am experiencing with my boat, I seriously doubt if I will be able to wear out the original 427 motors. If I do, I'll most certainly have them rebuilt. It would be the far easier thing to do, the most economical choice, without any re-engineering perils, and in the end the boat will be sold with all original Chris Craft equipment.
The key to any good rebuild is finding the right shop
March 1 2008, 1:09 PM
Tom, I agree with the rebuild comments wholeheartedly. The key is to find a shop that has Ford blocks already on the shop floor. That's the assurance they know what the heck they're doing. There are still a lot of Ford trucks out there still running 390 and 391 blocks, some of which have been rebuilt more than once. The Fords are a little different than the generic GM, but really not any more difficult, just a little different.
It would be wise to discuss the need for a rotation specific main seals, but nowadays, I think they're using seals without the wipers anyway. I guess if I were goinng to do a 427 rebuild, I would ask them to find the marine seals because the opposite rotation seals have the wipers pointing one way, and the automotive rotation has them pointing the other way. Using the wrong seal is a recipie for a real oil leaker. The standard and opposite rot cranks have empossed wiper marks pointing in the proper direction for the specific direction of rotation, annd these can not be swapped from one motor to another. Othere than that, no prob as long as they use the opp rotation cam and crank in the opp rotation motor and set valves accordingly. That would be a concern with any marine rebuild, and I'm sure any good shop foreman has already been there and done that. Comments about the 427 bore are interesting too. I would be very tempted to just lightly hone those annd reinstall pistons with new rings unless things were really gone.
These guys aren't idiots, if they're running a serious machine shop they'll generally know what they are doing. Just be sure they have a couple Ford blocks already in the shop so you arent paying the tuition for someone to do their first one. Most of the old timers have seen plenty of them. Watch out for the young guys who are just building hot small block Chevys for a living.
I plan to keep 427 power in TRADITION during my ownership. If the motors need to be rebuilt, it will be done in the winter season. I have a pair of spares, and I might just swap those in. They were obtained from a Hatteras that was repowered with diesel, and they were rebuilt with new pistons and heads, with tickets. Those actually may go into another boat someday, so I may still be faced with a 427 rebuild in the future. Since the haul-out and re-installation is most of the work, dropping them off at the shop and picking them back up really wouldn't be that much of a deal.
Another option I didn't mention before, but it's valid, is the "because I want to" option. I don't mind hearing about this one as long as there isn't some sort of a rationalization that makes me roll my eyes. Just step up to the plate and do the deed. It's really nice when people who do this, stay with the old equipment long enough to assure it goes to another boater who may need or appreciate it.
Warren Pateman did a really nice diesel repower, but it involved some trial and error too, and they found the installation had too much back pressure and had to make adjustments. Thats just one of many issues he faced, not to mention the reshafting and repropping requirements, and the complete re-setting of new iron where the old iron used to live. The install was well done, and it cost a ton of money too.
There's been a lot of talk about diesel repowering. People seem to think that if they spend that kind of money everything will be a snap. Unfortunately everything associated with diesel costs more money than gas. If you think B-O-A-T stands for "break out another thousand", take that X10 when you add D-I-E-S-E-L to the equation. They're marvelouos for the haul, but they take maintenance and they don't like sitting around. I know a guy who had Caterpillar mechanics on his boat for a couple of weeks, and all I can say is "ouch", that must have hurt.
I like to end these sorts of conversations by acknowledging the fact that old iron is certainly rebuildable, and very viable for economic recycling. Every boat owner needs to make the decisions he or she believes is right for him or her, and in doing so they'll be subject to all kinds of advice, marketing barrage, and people who would be delighted to take their money. Sharing of information can help, and this is one reason we try to put the word like this out there for people to consider. I have had numerous people tell me publically here on the Forum, by private email, and via telephone, how much money they saved by reading a single post here from someone who was kind enough to take the time to share.
I am reminded of the story about the widow who was faced by the local marina mechanics, after her deceased husband departed this earth and left her with a 427-powered boat. She was convinced by the local mechanics (rightly or wrongly) that those "old motors" needed to be replaced, and it would take umpteen thousands of dollars to do it, but when it was done, she would have new motors in the boat, etc, yadda yadda. Funny thing, while the husband was alive he didn't think the motors needed to be replaced, hmmmm. Sad but true.
Information is power. This Forum is here to have fun and share information. Once people see the info, I think they're better suited to make decisions like this. In the end it's "their boat, their money, and their choice". There certainly is no set answer for the issue of dealing with worn motors in old boats. Actually that's part of the fun. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it and the price of these boats would be sky high!
If you live in the southeast around Atlanta,GA. These folks specialize in 427's among other FE engines. While his specialty is to make HP for Cobra's, when asked, he can also do "detuned" marine 427's with the same precision. Take time to browse the site. I think this place qualifies as as reputable 427 rebuild center to even the pickiest owner.
One disadvantage we here in the South have when compared to boating centers like the Great Lakes, is the fact that there aren't many boats in the area to give these guys experience with boat motors. The FE motors are all put together the same way, but a Cobra hot rod shop would need to be instructed about the reverse rotation issues carefully. Some of the bubbas there may have never been aboard a boat that didn't have an outboard motor attached to it, but I'm sure from looking at the site, they know Ford motors well.
Everyone:
There is one other point that can be made here. Rebuilding an engine yourself or as much of it as you can is really part of being a prudent Captain to my mind. If I do not figure out where all the wires go, I will just add more chaos to the already overpowering rat's nest that resides on the Summer Palace now. In the back of my mind will alway be the doubt and fear that something could go wrong and catch on fire. Or I could make a false positive decision based on no true knowledge of the wiring, I could spend time and money on the wrong thing(s). On the other hand if I follow Don's advice and get down to the basics and then rewire and do it up to code, I will rest easy when I do get to the anchorage and when I put the boat away for the week. This is the same thing with the engines. I will put the running engines in so that I can have a little fun this summer. If I try to rebuild the ones that just came out, it will take until the fall before I can run them. But getting intimate with each and all the gear on board is prudent when you set out to sea with other people's lives in your hands. Rebuilding an engine also give a Skipper another eye, so to speak, that provides him or her with the depth perception sometime needed to make the correct analysis when something goes wrong underway. Doing your own work will save you a lot in the long run.
If you have all original parts, keep them so others can see how far we have come and why new technologies are important. Tachometers come to mind. The gauges on the helm are stylish to my eye, but the cable system is pretty much gone. I will go with an electronic system, but fit the gauges in the original housing. This is prudent to my mind because I want a using boat. I have a 1949 Chevrolet Delux, that I will keep original because applying new technologies do not make sense with it and it will keep the cable system.
By the way, I got the two big engines and the genset home today, unloaded the geset and one engine. The other will have to wait until tomorrow. Man, those things are big. Anyone interested in the Paragon transmissions contact me.
Jerry
I would submit that the larger issue of the question is the boats itself. I will use my boat as the example;
Stargazer II is an Express 30 that weighs right at 10 K, and has 307Qs. These are long stroke 283s, and as we all know the longer the stroke in relation to the bore size, the more torque (as a precentage of total torque) there is at lower RPM. To illistrate that look at the horespower and torque charts for a 307Q and a 327 Q.
The 307 has 280 ft/lb at 3100, the 327 has 330 ft/lb at 3100. If that were all of it, there would be no discussion, however, the 327 has a torque curve, it starts at 2000 making 290 ft/lb, climbs to 330, then drops off to around 285 at 4200.
The 307 in comparision is almost tractor like in it's torque curve in that there is nearly no curve to it. At 1800 the 307 is making 260 ft/lb, at 3100, 280 ft/lb, and at 4000, 260 ft/lb.
That lack of a curve in the 307's torque curve is what gives me the ability to flump along at 1500 RPM on plane and running about 13-14 mph at a combined fuel burn of 12 GPH lightly loaded.
Now, suppose that the ole 307s get tired, what to do, what to do. If I replace them, what with? If I put late model EFI 350s in the old thing it will be better, right? New problem, there is only 1 inch between the top of my flat cap mallory distributers, and the hatch. That means the electronic ignition has to go, and what is this? with out the electronic ign the electronic fuel injection won't work, so after that is gone, and a carburater back on what did I gain? Nothing, but I spent a lot of money.
OK, so we will get rid of the whole flywheel forward thing. When I turn the engines around the right way the transmissions won't work any more so I replace them, when they are replaced the shafting won't work, so I replace it. At the end of it I have spent not a ton, but several tons of money, and the boat runs just about like it did before, and perhaps not as well. I really like that 12 GPH.
Short version; I will rebuild the 307s until there is nothing left to rebuild, then I will start stockpiling GMC school busses from the 70s for the 307s in them.
Jeff, Some of the new EFI (crusader for instance) use distributor less ignitions. ( Computer timed Coil packs) So that would work, but you are still correct, that you would have to turn them around and then buy new gears. good luck with the bus lot
Jeff the reason your boat has Qs is the height issue Q engines have a lower profile than flywheel aft engines. If you installed normal engines you would have to raise your deck or engine hatches.
Good observations on the SBC motors. They have proven themselves millions of times in so many different kinds of boats. The 307 is a smaller bore 327, with the same crankshaft stroke. Since they're the same externally, you would still be in good or better shape if you ever decided to repower with the larger bore 327. It appears that at any given rpm, the 327 would have equal but more torque and or power, which would appear to still give you the low end burble and tractability all of us value so much at the docks, and the additional boost at speed.
I recently had a ride in a 1937 Hackercraft, repowered with a CC 283 setup. The boat would fly. We had a great ride. My flywheel aft 327F also has a remarkably flat torque curve too, but the flywheel forward 327Q has considerably more power all the way. The old Model K Hercules weighed in at 680 pounds and produced 95 hp. All of these small V8 motors weigh essentially the same thing, and produce far better power at less weight.
If you're running a 10,000 pound boat up on a plane at 1500 rpm, ha, you have a sweet combination for sure! Add that 12 gph, why change anything?
Regards,
Paul
For the photo documentation, here is a photo of the 327Q found aboard SHADY LADY, our family 31' Sedan. I think the 307Q is visually identical.
I think it was Tom Slayton who commented a while back about the flywheel aft designs scooping lots of water if the bilge got water in it, and this is a fact.
I encountered this on my first two test runs on the 1966 20' fiberglass Sea Skiff project. I didn't realize there was a water pathway back at the rudder log. The packing was replaced, but there was still a lot of water leaking down around the assembly and before I knew it, "what the heck", I had a pretty good leak going on and a lot of water sloshing around. It had me pretty spooked at first, but thankfully the bilge pump took care of most of the issue. During the run, that aft flywheel of the 327F sprayed a lot of water around. It's not real good in that sense because it could have shorted out the motor. This is a lot more noticed in a small boat where a few gallons of water make a lot more difference in the small hull than on a cruiser, but it is a feature where the flyweel forward motors have a real world boating advantage. The old 283H also has the flywheel forward (with distributor on the transmission housing to keep a low profile, used in late 1950s runabouts).
