Alright, so I finally got around to launching the Commander 23 into the water. I posted a picture of it earler this month and it was still sitting on the trailer. Doesn't do too much good up there, does it?
Ill take some multimedia tomorrow or something when I get a chance to clean it a little better.
Anyway, heres the major issue. I cleaned the carb but did not replace anything inside of it earlier this year. It seemed pretty clean inside as it usually gets cleaned once a year just for good measure.
The motor is a 327FA. Has the (i assume original) carter carb.
The boat starts just fine, however if you get into the throttle much above 2000 RPM it bogs big time. First time out I found that the linkages that open the secondaries werent operating properly. Fixed that and the secondaries open fine. Still, it wants to bog really bad. Seems like its running rich too. I adjusted the jets on the back to like 1.5 turns out. Like I said, the thing idles pretty good and cruises decently. I took it out on the water cruising below 2000 RPM and it was fine.
Would the next obvious step be to go ahead and rebuild the carb? As far as i know, the jets on the back of the carb are only for idle, right? I seems that maybe when i was looking down with the engine at WOT that there might have been fuel leaking between the halves of the carb..
Any suggestions would be wonderful! If I have overlooked something in the archives, please point me that direction!
Hi Wes, looking forward to seeing the photos ! ( here is a carb photo for you ! )
June 28 2007, 9:11 AM
regarding that carb, if you see ANY wet surfaces during idle, inside the carb, you have a problem. From what I see in your post, you are due a carb rebuild. There are some rubber and plastic parts that will deterioriate over time, and it can probably use a good cleaning too. Fuel filters are another issue that goes along with the package.
On my 20' 1966 fiberglass Sea Skiff 327F, I removed the forward mounted final filter between the fuel pump and carb and looked inside. What I saw was amazing. There was more crap built up in there over 40years of running than you would believe. So much crap, in fact, that when I took out the drain valve on the bottom, very little fuel even came out. I thought I had a fuel starvation issue, but the upper section was full of fuel, and the lower section was so full of crap it clogged the drain down.
Here is a close up view of the final fuel filter on a 327F, your motor may be different, but the 427 uses this same system too. It is something else to look at for good reliable running.
Therefore, you can expect to see some similar junk in your final filter if it has not been serviced lately, as well as any OTHER filter you may have on your boat. I have since installed a big RACOR fuel and water seperator and filter system on this boat, anticipating the fuel tank junk syndrome. Time will tell on that one, but you would benefit from a carb rebuild if the boat has just been run over the years. Those things can require a rebuild if they just sit around long enough.
The carb that came on my project boat (see photo below) was so corroded that I took one look and immediately decided I didn't want to have to deal with that carb in this lifetime, so I pulled a known good running carb off my 327 powered 1956 and I'm using that one for my initial testing.
I purchased an Edelbrock marine carb (600 cfm) for the 327F knowing it has more cfm than a 210 horse motor will need, but also knowing my 8.5:1 compression ratio was a 250-hp motor in it's lowest power form in automotive use (I have an automotive short block). Therefore the jetting may not be all that far off. Again, time will tell. If your carb has given good (known) service in the past, chances are, all you need is a rebuild kit and a little bench time.
Regards, good luck,
Paul
1966 38' Commander Express
FXA 38 3004 R
Original 427 power
1966 20' Sea Skiff (fiberglass)
327F+ power
1957 Chris Craft Sportsman Utility
Original 95-hp Hercules Model K
1956 17' Chris Craft Sportsman Utility
327H++
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jun 28, 2007 9:14 AM
I knew this would happen. Id see my boat sitting at the pier and I knew id want to take it out. So I did, and it just makes me sad because not so long ago the boat revved to 4000 all day...
I cleaned the carb already before the boat was put in the water and it was pretty clean. I go through it every year. Ive found after sitting through winters outside its just easiest if you skip it and go right to it.
For others, its a carter 3660, NAPA has the parts however they had to be ordered, so I wont get it until Monday. It cost me like $26... I will probably do a pictoral on rebuilding this carb. Man, I really hate carburetors, I'm a Nissan guy (im sure you guys are cringing), and fuel injection is so much nicer IMO.
The thing runs SUPER rich. Thing is though, it idles perfect. The thing runs so rich that when you start it up and rev it a little, it spits carbon out the exhaust!!
Im going to rebuild the carb and see where it gets me. Does anyone have any suggestions on resetting the jets? is there any sort of high speed adjustment, because like I said at idle or just off idle it runs good.
Im already sorta planning my 327 rebuild this winter when the boat is hibernating. without going into a lot of details, do people rebuild these motors to get more HP? Can the gears handle the power? Any drawbacks or things I should reconsider?
Im really sorry, I feel like such a newbie at this stuff, but i'm not used to this forum layout so I have a hard time finding information
Glad to have you aboard, I think the more you look, the more you will be amazed at the information archived here. It's the culmination of lots of people making contributions, and this forum passed the 1-million pages read quite some time ago.
I've been around antique and classic boats just about full time since the early 1970s when I got out of college and got my first one. Prior to that I grew up at Conneaut Lake, PA, so I've been around them essentially all my life. There is a certain segment of the antique and classic boat sect who goes for the power, and these are the guys who hang out at the Antique Race Boat Regatta held every two years at Clayton, New York. People come from all around, and they bring some very exotic machines from light weight Ventnors built so light they were only intended to last long enough to finish the race in first place, to some of the anvil tough gentleman's racers like Phil Sharples has, sporting Falconer V12 power, Offenhauser and Miller power, just to drop a few names from his collection.
These are the guys who run the Jersey Speed Skiffs, the vintage unlimited and class regulated wood hydroplanes like CHRYSLER QUEEN, the Ventnor 225 tail draggers like JUNO (with original Packard Gold Cup power), IT's A WONDER, DANCING BEAR, and so many more it's impossible to scratch the surface. Some of these guys know the black magic of how to make boats go faster than they're supposed to go, like Curt Brayer, who holds two APBA records that will never be broken because the F-Service Runabout class was discontinued. He built DANCING BEAR in his younger years with a 426 Hemi as power, and Casale V-drive mounted forward of the helm. He was the APBA "high point man" for seven (7) years in a row, holding records for top speed and highest average speed. Guess what? I had the pleasure of being his passenger in that boat one day out on the St. Lawrence River, with the mufflers out, running at speed in his capable hands, and it was a thrill of a lifetime. Speed and power are both addictive.
There's a little Race Boat Regatta in me (Janet and I actually worked the gates one year), and I've used some of that motivation on my 1956 17' Chris Craft Sportsman Utility. You may have noticed it has a 300-hp SBC, but it looks dead stock original because its a period motor. Well, I have to admit it's not painted CC blue and it has finned aluminum valve covers, but at least it doesn't look like it was equipped from the local auto parts chrome department.
That boat has an almost flat bottom at the transom and it's very quick, but it's downright dangerous if you encounter rough water, so a high level of restraint is needed. On the Cumberland River, however, which is often glass smooth for miles, it's a blast. It is presently sitting in my basement, without a carb because the carb is on my Sea Skiff project boat being used for testing right now.
The SBC motors are able to go just as fast as your Gold Card will permit. You can spend many many many thousands of dollars on these motors, but we must remember the 350 was the first of the 4-bolt Chevy small blocks, and those are the best for real speed builds. Transmission technology is there too, because I've seen many a Speed Skiff come clear out of the water at wide open throttle, and those boats, motors, drivetrains, and drivers take a pounding. It doesn't come cheap.
I have mixed feelings about power and speed. On one hand, a guy needs to be able to appreciate the sounds, torque, and 36-mph delivered by a flathead Model K Hercules (95-hp at 3200 rpm), because those motors are designed to idle down beautifully and last forever. On the other hand, it's nice to be able to stay ahead and leave behind one of the new fiberglass boats that look like a jelly bean thats been sucked on for awhile. Ask Matt ODonnell, he has a sleeper, it's his vintage wood Sea Skiff, and from what I understand it's a legend around his harbor.
The stock 327F is a 8.0:1 compression ratio motor, pumping out a modest and long lived usable 210 hp at the shaft. These motors run well on the quality of marine gas available these days, idle down beautifully, and will provide lots of enjoyment. They have torque cams allowing them to do the "uphill run" hours upon end. A stock 283 or 327 is a fine choice.
The comment about the 4-bolt mains is right on, but the 327 has lots of potential before those mains feel any danger. 300-hp is easy, and you can do much more if you're willing to pay the dues and the machine shop.
Both my 327 motors are automotive 2-bolt blocks with 8.5:1 compression, and the lowest power rating those motors had in automotive form was 250. A performance intake and a mild cam upgrade will get you quite a bit more power without spending a lot of money. You can do some work on the heads to increase efficiency and increase reliablity of the valve train. If you're planning on using that power a lot, then you need to take care of the bottom end (new bearings). There's a joke here in the South, that every woman, man, and child over the age of 12 (including Grandmothers) knows how to rebuild a SBC blindfolded. They're not difficult or expensive, in relative terms.
I've seen some pretty high strung motors driving around at the Race Boat Regattas, giving rides, going in and out time and time again, and they appear to be very tractable. What I don't see is how long they last, and how much work was put into them to make them perform like they do.
Sorry for the ramble. In the end, yes, I think there are some things that can be done to increase performance without sacrificing longevity too much. Chris Craft did their homework superbly by making the choices they did for the general public. Personally, I wouldn't go much beyond 300, but at that limit you're still looking at nearly 100 hp more than the stock motor. With that power you'll have to deal with increased internal engine heat, and all the issues associated with making a race boat go fast and stay together. We have the technology.
I would gladly take one of these boats out if I were behind the wheel, but you COULD NOT PAY ME ENOUGH to be a passenger, ha! Terrifying, especially when they come out of the water and start to roll.
Those Jersey Speed Skiffs are crazy. There would be no way I would step into the passenger compartment on one of those either.
On the engine rebuild side, be sure you don't treat the motor like it is in a car and select a cam or intake manifold that are designed for high rpm power, because you'll probably never see the benefits. A nice open dual plane intake would be nice, and a nice truck towing cam would be too. Going much beyond that can get you into a whole new league, and the dollars can start to roll out of your wallet fast.
I have not looked for cams on a small block Chevy for ages, but this motor is so prolific, there are sure to be some good choices. If you do change the cam be sure to change the lifters too, and use a special break in oil.
Regarding your transmission, I am wondering if the small block motor came with the same tranny as the 427 setup. If so, that is an indication of how much power they can take. I think you can get a crate motor with 350 hp, but the power comes in at higher rpm. You can also stroke the crank and get the popular 383 cubic inches too, which would be fun.
I spoke with Mr. Lunati many years ago about hot rodding a flathead Hercules. It really caught his interest and I became aware of Lunati capabilities at that time. They did my regrind in Memphis, after discussions about what the motor would be used for, etc., and they supplied the lifters too. I have the spec somewhere. It is what would be called a 3/4 cam grind. The heads were cleaned up, nothing exotic.
I saw Toms mention of the 383 stroked small block, and yes indeed, that would be a real sleeper. I think some of the Jersey Speed Skiff guys are running those "buzz motors", they have big power and run like the blazes. For my old wood boat, it would be far too much motor. Hmmmm, maybe in the 20' fiberglass Sea Skiff in a couple years, quite possible
To illustrate what can be done, I visited the Edelbrock.com page. Take a look at this.........
Look at the 320-hp version first
This is a street legal setup, mild hop up from stock, similar to what I have in my 1956 speedboat. I actually use a Performer dual plane intake, but not their fancy heads.
With a bump in compression and using their expen$ive cylinder heads, they’re showing 320 hp for a basic “RV grind” at around 5500 rpm. As you can very clearly see, this cam has good power up to around 4000 to 4500 but it runs out of steam there, and only develops it’s ultimate power way up at 5500 which would be nuts. Note how torque drops above 4000 rpm. For this particular 320-hp setup, I would select a prop that would keep the motor from exceeding 4000 rpm in a boat. There would be little gained, if anything, trying to go above that in a boat (or in a car for that matter).
Now look at the stroked 383 just for fun
This setup uses the RPM cam, which comes on around 1500 and goes to 6500 rpm, their higher rpm intake, and basically a higher rpm everything. I’m stunned to see the torque being essentially equal to a 427 at 3000 rpm, if you can believe this graph. You can see the power curve on the 383 just heading upward all the way to 6000 which is not very realistic in a boat unless you’re in a Speed Skiff. Of particular note, at the 4000 benchmark, this setup is 50-hp more than the mild setup is at 4000. I think the mild 320-hp setup would be best for a runabout, but using the 383 crank on a mild setup would be a little more fun.
Hope this helps put things into general perspective. The SBC can basically go as fast as your Gold Card can.
Indeed, I appreciate you taking the time to go through all of this... For the commander 23 I think that is going to be the best route to go with the more mild build. Basically anything major we get past 4000 RPM is pretty useless. I could see maybe revving to 4500 but thatd be about it. Of course it may be ideal to rev to 5252RPM where HP=torque.
really my only goal is for cruising. I want the boat to be able to cruise faster than it does now. A good pace I like in the boat is around 3500-3800 RPM (not sure on the speed) but if I could make that my 3000 RPM speed thatd be nice.
Also running the exhausts that marine motors use its likely to say that you may gain less HP, especailly if you run the same manifolds on a bigger displacement motor. Like for instance, if i ran the 383 setup i may not get the 464HP due to the exhaust being less than ideal. hard to say for sure and im not sure it matters.
The videos of that sea skiff were brilliant. has to be a thrill riding in it. Certainly pretty fast but the whole ride had to be a great time.
Again, I cant say how much I appreciate the time you've taken for me...
Certainly, if I do decide to rebuild the motor with performance parts Im going to do a full documentary on it. As soon as the boat is back to running good in its stock form I'll take some videos of it.
That 383 stroker, by the way, uses the "Performer RPM" intake and "Performer RPM" heads, and those are for high flow at higher RPM, so I don't think they would work all that well in the lower torque speeds encountered for docking, and low speed operation like fishing. At wide open speeds, however, a single plane intake works great, but the regular "Performer" type dual plane intakes are what we want in our non-racing boats. I'm running a "Performer" on my 1956 (I have a very close friend in the automotive speed industry, and he keeps telling me that "we can make that motor do anything you want it to do"). Maybe we'll give him half a chance one of these days,
When I got my 20 Skiff, I was REALLY tempted to drop a 427 in it. Doing the measurements, however, I saw it would be a longer motor and would compromise the interior layout of the boat, and I resisted knowing I could get almost the same ultimate power out of the smaller motor, within reason, later if I wanted to. Therefore I stuck with the original 327F.
There's never been a motor built anywhere anytime that had all the OEM and aftermarket parts supply as the SBC. If you set out to build one from scratch, going all the way with an eye to reliability AND power, there is a huge potential there. You can even start with specialty blocks that are reinforced to handle the bigger power.
Naturally, doing a stock rebuild is a very rewarding experience, and it's probably the best way to go because the longevity factor is well known. There sure are lots of ways to tweak these motors during a rebuild too, and at some point in the future of my Sea Skiff, I will probably do power upgrade of some kind.
Many years ago Janet and I were at an ACBS in-the-water rendezvous at Joe Wheeler in North Alabama. We motored up along side a nicely restored Shepherd, and of course I casually commented......."NICE BOAT....wanna race?" At that moment the two little girls aboard both jumped to their feet and yelled YEAH ! The driver, smiled, and his wife also nodded. At that moment we both advanced our throttles and the Shepherd got onto a plane and literally ROARED off into the mist. Later I discovered the guy was a racing enthusiast like many people in the South, and his boat had a moderately tweaked big block Pontiac GTO motor. It was all I could do to get him to pop the engine hatch, but one look at that motor told the story.........all specialty fittings, not much chrome, but EVERYTHING right in it's place, with a purpose.
I guess the point I'm making with the added power is, you can't just add a hundred or more horses to a car (or boat) without paying attention to the oil cooler, radiator, brakes, shocks, chassis, tires, and transmission, etc. A little added power is fine with the original drivetrain, but more may requrie other attention especially if you plan on using it much.
My 1956 CC has a reinforced main frame, not unlike you would find in a Speed Skiff, simply because I wanted to "do it right", since it has about two hundred more horses than it had originally. Under poor conditions I could probably break it in half, so restraint and smooth water are good things. The hull is not much good at all in the chop.
Thanks for your comments, good luck with the boat, by all means keep us posted.
FINALLY, I got some time to go back and look at my beloved commander 23. As I noted earlier, the engine ran terrible, with basically no power much past idle.
Anyway, I finally have looked into it, and after rebuilding the carb we are certain the engine is toasted. The plugs look pretty bad, and one cylinder has no compression at all. Overall, I dont think its too bad, the boat has 680 hours on it.
I have not decided 100% if I am going to rebuild the 327F or if I am going to try to swap something else in (I have a few ideas). The boat has more value to me, plus I know I will be keeping the original motor, so if I ever did need to get rid of the boat I could include the original motor.
I'm thinking about installing an infiniti V8 into it. Its only 274CI, but it produces 300HP and loves high RPMs. I think i wouldnt have to run risers because theres so much extra room in there. Would run heat exchanger and custom mount a raw water pump.
We'll see what happens. But for now, the commander 23 is going to be pulled out of the water and the motor is going to be pulled, deciding what we're going to do from here.
I think its good that finally we have an excuse to do something with it, because it just hasnt been really enjoyed for the last few years, and its most definitely a very enjoyable boat.
I have also considered about installing surround seats in the rear. Instead of having only the rear seat, Id thought about building some seats that would go on the sides to allow more people to enjoy. havent decided on that yet, and for that matter no one will enjoy the boat if it cant move!
I was interested in the boat and wondered how you were coming with it. With a boat of your calibre, you should not customize it. In addition, the Infiniti motor would probably be ruined fast in the marine environment, because torque is king, and high rpm horsepower is for road racing. Compared to a 327F, the Infiniti is a lightweight.
The chevy motor can produce much more power after a rebuild, depending upon what you do to it. Beware, quality of gas makes a difference more and more these days, and higher compression will require an octane booster if you go too high.
On the cylinder that has no compression, have you checked the valve clearances? One may be open, stuck, or burned, in which case the heads can be popped off and back on quickly.
If the motor is totally worn out and can not be rebuilt, you can still replace it with another SBC and get good service. The 327F is a piece of cake to rebuild, nothing really odd about it like the Q motors. Any good machine shop can do the job just fine, as long as they go to the trouble to use the heavy duty parts and not the light weight junk that may also fit that motor.
680+ hours, shucks, that motor should run another 1000 hours and still work very well. Swapping to an infiniti motor would seem to be an endless can of worms, didn't know they even made a marine exhaust manifold for those. I would think at this point just a head job would be all that's needed.
I think that I am going to pull at least one of the heads tonight. The motor isnt useful like it is now, and if we find out it needs a full rebuild thats not a huge deal.
I was just throwing that option out, we'll see what happens. I am gonna pull one of the heads and see. I figure that it needs a head job anyway so if we end up having to pull it and do some internal work, we wont have to mess with the heads.
The small block Chevy 327F is thought of as the "Corvette motor", it's solid lifter, built like a truck, (like a rock?)
Bearings are durable, pistons large, crankshaft tough as nails, and with a long history of good marine service. It's also one of the easiest V8 motors to rebuild because just about EVERY machine shop is familiar with them.
Yes, you can hot rod them mildly and get more power. Even a stock rebuild is a great marine piece of equipment. I think you would devalue the boat terribly with an Infiniti motor, by the way. Perish the thought! I understand it was a worse case scenario, but you would be better off with the Chevy.
As for the interior, these Commanders are going to increase in value. This forum is doing it's part to get the word out, and the market is already on the upswing. Customizing a collectable boat is not ever a very good idea. Yes, there can be some nice things done and we've all done it, so I'll just offer a caution to go easy.
Tom mentioned a great thing to check and that's the valves on the cylinder with no compression. I had a valve on my SB 427 that had no compression, and it turned out that the previous owner had the valves badly adjusted to the point where one cylinder had zero compression. Upon setting a proper adjustment, the pressure went up and believe it or not, those engines have run like a top for ten years.
We have a junkyard down the road, I could probably pick up a 454 or 427 out of a truck or a van fairly cheap. if it runs, that may be even better than getting a valve job on this current motor... All of my marine accessories from the 327 should go right on, and if I had to get marine head gaskets thats no biggie (which I dont know if thats a concern running fresh water).
The main thing is I want to start tinkering with the motor, and I'd like to leave the stock motor somewhat unscathed, if you know what I mean. If I swapped in a 454 and (lord forbid) i had to get rid of the boat, I'd have the stock motor ready to go back in to make it an all original commander. In the time being though, it might end up being cheaper (which isnt a concern) but easier (which is a concern). A stock 454 basically would give me the power Im looking for out of the box, and if i wanted to go higher thatd be easy.
I would hate to do something stupid with the 327 and throw a rod through the block or something and then be forced to have the non original motor.
We shall see, but it seems that for the remainder of this season, the commander 23 will be on its trailer. I can then start ripping it apart to get it ready for next season.
BTW, dont dog on my infinti motor. it makes more torque at 2000 RPM than the 327 does!
Its quite depressing to see my beloved boat in its current condition, but I know it will be for the better in the long run. Finally, I may be able to get into the boat, crank it over and enjoy it, not having to deal with any crap.
So we pulled the heads (no pics of the heads) and apparently 6 valves had to be replaced. Unfortunately, the mechanic pulling the heads (I didnt do it because I didnt have time to be at the boat 100 miles away) did not talk to me prior to sending to the heads to get redone. The heads were sent to NAPA to be redone, machined and all that fun stuff. Ended up costing $600 bucks.
I was kind of disappointed at this, however now I'm pretty much locked into rebuilding the original motor. Its a love/hate sort of situation. I would have just assumed spend that money on a running motor and kept the original motor, but what is done is done now.
Anyway, the motor is in way worse shape than I thought. I am surprised that it was running at all, and after looking at the pics you will probably share the sentiments. I dont know how the motor got like this.
My current plan is sometime before it gets cold, im gonna pull the motor out of the boat and set the boat aside. Im going to disassemble the engine and send the block for machining. I never checked oil pressure, but I presume that the crank is fine. If its not then that could be bad, but hopefully all it will take is some fresh bearings and i'll be golden.
I dont really see any reason to not get some higher compression pistons since I have to replace them anyway. Ill know what pistons im running once I get the block back from the machine shop.. I dont think im going ot do anything with the intake or carb since I can do that later, and I already rebuilt the carb so it should be ready to rock and roll.
So without further adieu, here are the pics. They are 1280x760, hopefully that isnt too big.
Motor sitting in boat, with intake, risers and heads off.
One of the bores. you can see the wear pattern if you look at the the top of the bore, how the cylinder is worn slightly more than the top of the bore.
RH Bank (from front of motor)
LH bank, notice pistons #3 and #5
New Heads
Misc parts on assembly cart waiting to be installed
Since I promised pics of the boat earlier, heres a couple. Sorry its in such disarray, but it will look a lot better comparatively when its all done!!!
I admire anyone who is dealing with big issues like a motor rebuild. Congratulations on keeping things original. I can assure you, that the so-called "convenient" repowering options are often waaaay more complicated than the salesmen will indicate at the time of the sale, and costs just seem to go on and on.
In any case, a little research about that 327F. My 327F block somewhere along the line was apparently frozen. Either that or it was just plain worn out. In any case, I found some evidence of frozen exhaust logs, so I figure the block froze too. I found orange paint on my block under that CC blue, which indicates to me it came from a car or truck. I traced the serial number to the NY plant. The lowest power street 327 built was a 250-hp version. Part of the difference between the 210 marine version and the 250 automotive version is the fact that the automotive version has 8.5:1 compression over the 8.0:1 marine version. I don't think a little boost in compression would hurt anything, but pay attention to that cam! Unless you numbered the old lifters, you're obligated to use new ones and re-run in the cam. If you change out the cam, stay with a reasonably low rpm torque or RV cam (truck towing package) and it should serve you well.
Great photos, thanks for taking the time to share the experience with the rest of us! Mark Weller recently rebuilt a SBC Q motor, I heard it run recently, and he could be a source of good tips if you need em!
Good luck on your winter project. I have the same boat in a 1969 w/ a 327Q. I can tell you my experience is as follows: EVERYTHING is suspect and must be given the once over. And, If someone else worked on or modified, that is suspect. From fuel tank to exhaust. My motor looked great and started right up. Certainly a different story under load or when it overheats. I am in the process of having my third motor installed. Original cracked due to freeze by prior owner. Second was a used 327 shortblock that gave out (bearing rap) under power. Now for the third. I am going w/ a new shortblock w/ warranty and evaluate every old bolt on part that I put on.
You have a great boat that should run fine w/ original power. I had mine run @ 36mph w/ gps.
While the motor is out I would have your paragon trans and V-drive checked. I know that my goal is to have years of reliable power out of my setup. In the big picture it's really worth it.
Don't hesitate to contact should you have any questions unique to the 23.
Thanks for the remarks. I was planning on putting in some other cam anyway so that doesnt concern me. Get a little bit more power and the original cam looks a little bit worn anyway. We actually didnt take the lifters out of the block, but they could probably use a once-over as well...
Once I pull the motor, im going to document this fairly detailed. Im going to try and do as much of the work myself as I can. Depending on how things go, I may or may not have the engine assembled by someone else, but that may be a better way of doing it. I guess it all depends on what kind of hook-up I can get with a machine shop fairly close to me. It maybe worth my while to just have them assemble the short block and make sure everything is fine.
Bill, what do you think needs to be done with the V drive and reverse gear? Would that be something that I could pull apart myself and inspect for wear, or is there something else that needs to be looked at. from what I remember reading the transmission has a self adjusting brake band so no adjustment is needed. The trans seems to be fine, however reverse seems to be a tiny bit sluggish in engagement..
Also.... Does anyone know if its easier to pull the motor with the reverse gear and V drive attached or to remove the motor by itself?
Naturally if you're going to install a new cam, you'll need to install the cam manufacturers new lifters and be VERY careful with run-in. You'll also need to pay good attention to the oil you use, becuase there is less anti-wear additives being used these days to save catalytic converters (which hurts solid lifter motors).
With the cam, there is no point in selecting one with a higher lift than you can use at 4000 or 4500, because all it will do is bang up and down for no reason, wondering why you aren't turning 6000 where it provides the advertized power rating. Go for the RV towing package and stay with the low end torque.
I would think the best way to get that transmission out, is to pull it with the motor, and vice versa. Handling it by itself after the motor is out may be more difficult.
You're lucky the 23 has a lot more room than the series of photos I've referenced. Good luck !
I can tell you that it's worth having checked out for wear and tolerances. Pull the whole drive system. My trans works as does the V Drive, but the oil was brown in both. (rust?). Check the dipstick. If your white rag has a grey deposit in addition to to oil then you have filings from the gears in the V Drive. I am no mechanic. I just do not want to pull this motor again. My V Drive has a whine, but I am told most do. Those two componets are durable but after 40 years of use and worse, non-use, you can have a future problem. Parts and rebuilt kits are available. They are not complicated and a good trans shop should be able to help or you can send it to a company in Ohio who states that they produce original parts and they will rebuilt your trans w/ a warranty. Just my opinion. I spent 5 months straight on the interior and swim platform thinking my drivetrain was OK. No free ride, everything needs to be evaluated in order to have confidence in an classic boat.
We have been meticulous about maintenance... Regular fluid changes, so it may be OK. The reverse gear takes ATF if I remember and the V drive just takes gear lube.
Thanks for the suggestions. I will update when the motor is out.
Sorry for the double post, but does anyone know the stock lift on the 327F cams? I'm sure its in my manual somewhere, which BTW I have an original Commander 23 owners manual, im not sure if its already in the archives or not..
I really appreciate all the help you guys are giving me. This is way too easy! My other projects I have going are NOT this easy by any stretch of the imagination (I'm restoring some old snowmobiles and im into cars as well).. The information on this site is priceless, I can only hope to humor you slightly when my '23' is back up on plane, which compared to the projects I see on here this is cake!
My hope is once this is finished, I can get my gauges redone at the outfit thats recommended on here. Then I may consider painting the boat. Crap, then im never going to want to use it, just look at it!!
Does anyone know where I could get the plates for the side that have the model on it. The thing that says "commander 23, styled in fiberglass". One of mine is in good shape, the other isnt so much.
Man this has been a rough winter. I finally this past weekend got around to tearing apart the old 327.
Heres some pics of the carnage. The #3 and #5 pistons were the worst, the others showed some signs of detonation but nothing like this.
The good news is the bottom end needs no work. There is a tiny bit of scoring on a couple of the cap bearings. The number 6 looked the worst by far, but still when you run your finger across it, you cannot feel anything. I dont think any work to the bottom end will be needed, the crank is fine too. Not having to have the crank turned will really save money and make this process quite a bit easier. The mains looked great with no wear on any of them.
My current plan is im going to take the block and one of the heads to said machine shop. He will match me up with some pistons (i'll run a conservative 9.5-10:1 ratio), a cam and some other bolt on goodies. IM thinking the stock carter carb should be enough fuel.. Everything else should be ready to rock.
Shouldnt really be a big deal to get this thing back in the water by spring. We still have almost a foot of ice on the lake, so its not going in anytime soon!
#3 piston
#5 Piston
Im hoping that my setup will make about 260-270HP.. If the stock compression is 8:1, bumping that up with a cam should get me some nice power. Im pretty excited to cruise the lake when it becomes warm out!!
Wes, that's SOME destruction, my gosh, it's a wonder the motor ran at all. What in the world caused that carnage?
Regarding the compression ratio, your comment about the 9.5:1 caught my attention. I'd recommend going no higher than 9:0 just as a gut check. Sure, you can go higher but with todays gas I would suggest keeping it down a bit. A few extra horses really won't make all that much difference. Also, if you're sending in a head to be reworked, may as well send em both.
Are you running a 327F motor in that rig, cant remember and didn't look it up just yet. Those did have the 8.0:1 compression. The stock automotive 327 motors had 8.5:1 and with the intakes, cams and compression for the street, they were all 250-hp. Normally you want a RV cam in a boat so it performs without having to keep the rpm up high enough at docking speeds to not clunk or stall. Higher compression and a RV cam seems a little odd, but hey, that's all the "advice" I'll give because I'm really not qualified to give it without knowing all of what you're planning for the motor.
Those photos are very telling. You will have a PERMANENT SMILE etched on your face when you get then new burble going in that sweet hull of yours.
Good luck and thanks for the pics (they're being viewed world-wide right now!! )
I looked on some of your older images, and I see it's the ole 327F, which is a GREAT motor. It happens to be my favorite small block Chevy, because it's so simple (without the special features of the Q series that make it a little tougher to work on that particular momo).
I would be tempted to install an Edelbrock Performer or an Air Gap intake on that bad boy. I believe all the CC equipment would fit right on, but that oil filler tube may need to be custom bored on the newer style intake. I know Edelbrock makes one that will accept the old style oil filler tube because I installed one on my "hot" 17' Speedboat. I believe mine came with a cast in boss that was able to be tapped, and I believe I actually drilled and reamed it out to accept the oil filler tube off the original GM intake manifold. It's too far back to remember, I guess I could tell by looking at it. It's anchored in Permatex, and it allows you to use the stock valve covers that don't have an oil filler lid. That particular boat has the 8.5:1 compression because it's an automotive block that was substituted for the original 283, it has the upgraded intake, and a little hotter cam. I did a little porting and head work so I'm saying it's a 300, and so far I have little reason to doubt it because nobody in a similar size runabout has been able to touch it, ha ha. Yes, there are MUCH faster boats out there, but that old girl is downright fast for an old planked woodie and propped for speed rather than skiing. All the snappy looking Master Craft ski boats are all propped with 13X13 props and I can blow by them with ease. It makes them mad to see an old boat go like that.
My speedboat is almost dead flat at the transom, great on smooth water but very poor in a chop. I could really break things trying to go fast in the chop. Your advantage would be the fact that you could pour on the coals with your 23' Commander hull in the chop and leave me waaaaay behind, even with the stock 327F and 210-hp.
The 23' Commander has quite a deep profile, and that's obviously what makes it so good in rough water. Even with that, there is a limit to what it will take, but it's a world away from what my 17' Sportsman would take. My 20' 1966 fiberglass Sea Skiff has a moderately deep profile too and it would be able to handle rougher water and I'm very interested in giving it a try this summer out on some of the bigger water I can find here in central Tennessee. It also has the 8.5:1 automotive block and the lowest power rating for that motor in stock automotive form was 250. They're easy to tweak.
Since your hull has the additional wetted area, I would suspect you're dealing with more water friction when attempting speed runs. This will hurt you on flat water when something like my 17' boat wants to run you, but in anything more than flat water you'll walk away with ease. Since I'm getting such responsive power with the 8.5 compression, that is why I cautioned in my previous post to sort of keep it down a bit, and not go over 9.0. At that mark you'll be able to REALLY tell a huge difference. Careful selection of the cam will be important, don't go too radical, talk to your cam salesman and be sure he understands it's for a boat that won't be revving above 4000 or 4500. The intake, should you elect to upgrade, should also recognize the fact that you'll be in that rpm range too, because it's pointless to select an intake that has big power potential being reached at unrealistic high rpm ranges (automotive).
It sounds like fun to me, good luck with the reassembly. I think it would be a lot of fun to toy with some of the boats that "think" they're faster than a 23' Commander out there on water that will pound the heck out of them if the want to give it a try. Some of them may have a lot more power, but few of them will be able to withstand the pounding they'll get when a 23' Commander is just slicing through the swells.
I would be "tempted" to install one of these, and I may do this with my 1966 20' Sea Skiff. I would have to check carefully with Edelbrock, however, to be sure I could drill the manifold to accept that old style oil filler tube. I would also be sure to ask about the stock heads, but it seems that is okay. With a 600CFM Carter AFB or new Edelbrock carb, mild upgrade with cam, that motor would be in the STRONG category without getting to the point of being one of those short lived "bottle rocket" high powered jobs. Note it's a little higher profile than the stock intake. If you have clearance problems, I'd drop back to the Edelbrock Performer, which I have installed on my 1956 17' CC Sportsman (that intake breathes very well, but not quite as well as this one). Don't use a single plane, it won't idle down well for you, and docking is something we'll all have to do from time to time, lol.
Chevrolet 262-400 Small-Block V8
PERFORMER AIR-GAP (idle-5500 rpm)
Designed for 1955-86 262-400 c.i.d. small-block Chevys, the Performer Air-Gap features the air-gap design for the ultimate street performance in the idle to 5500 rpm range. This design features an open air space that separates the runners from the hot engine oil resulting in a cooler, denser charge for more power. High-velocity runners deliver excellent throttle response throughout the power band. The great looks of the Performer Air-Gap along with the solid idle to 5500 rpm performance makes this an ideal choice for street rods and street machines. Performer Air-Gap #2604 is for 1987-95 cast iron heads with canted center bolt holes. No provision for exhaust heated chokes or exhaust crossover. Fits spread-bore or square-bore carburetors. Will not fit under stock Corvette hood. Available with standard finish or polished.
So many boats..........so little time............but what a way to go!!
Looking through some reference material, I see the following recommendations for a 350 SBC, which would also work for the 327, the goal being more power in the mid range, and good fuel economy.
Low rise dual plane intake (like the Edelbrock Performer) and a Comp Cam High Energy, CCA-CLs12-210-2, 218/218 duration, .454"/454" valve lift, which is supposed to be "perfect" for engines with 8:1 to 9:1 compression. Power will be up to 5500 RPM with acceptable fuel economy. This is a truck cam for use on a truck, so I think it will also perform pretty well on a boat that is doing truck duty. That cam would be a reference point for you, in the event you are going to compare the stock cam, you'll be able to see what kind of an improvement you may get with the Comp Cams alternative.
Tom
edit comment: cam spec changed per request from Tom.
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Mar 10, 2008 6:54 AM
Paul, would you please correct the numbers in my prev posting, as I don't want people thinking the true numbers were supposed to be 268/268.
This gives the performance range over 1500 to 5500 rpm, and LOTS of addl torque. The previous number would be something that would work from 3000 to 7000 or so.
I agree on the compression. I'd try to keep the compression closer to 8:1. Those older heads were low turbulence, unlike the newer Vortec style, and won't tolerate cheap fuel with high compression. Timing should probably be 32-34 degrees MAX. Make sure you're not running lean. 10:1, you better be bringing 93 octane to the dock.
Detonation beats the bottom end up too. I like the RV cam idea..more useful power (torque!) at cruise. Now a pair of 350's will fall right in there, and you can run those 327 valve covers to fool everyone.
The good news, is one of my good friends is very "in" with a machine shop right across the street for him. I took the block, pistons, crank, and all the bearings and we'll see what he's going to do.
I am not going to upgrade the intake or carb right now. The engine is easy enough to work on in the boat, so Im going to focus on internals.. Plus, theres going to be more machine work than I originally anticipated. I'm probably going to have to punch it out at least .020 over at a minimum, some of the cylinders have some intense scoring. The gas we get at the pump is 90 octane (odd I know!).. Someone suggested to me 9.5:1.. However, I think my compression ratio will depend more on what cam I run, because I see a lot more gains in the cam, and also the interferences the cam may cause...
Im basically going to tell my machinist what IM doing, that I need low end power and max power at 4000 RPM or so.. We'll see what he recommends.. he's going to supply all my parts..
Guessing how the motor was, even when it was running "good", its probably going to be incredible rebuilt.
9.5:1 is pretty high, especially for a non-vortec..what happens if you can't get 90 octane? Effective compression is determined by both the cam and the carb. At 4000 rpms with a mild cam and a 4 bbl., you will be filling the cylinders and have high effective compression. It's your boat, but just be careful and do your homework. A little low compression, you may lose a couple horsepower. A little too high, you may lose the engine. Again.
