Strange looking 38' on Ebay in need of alot of TLC. Anybody close to it that could look at it? I wonder how much it would cost in fuel to cruise it to north Florida?
edit comment: As time would eventually show, the boat noted in Wes's post above was eventually acquired by Steven, who posted the acknowledgement here, and offered some additional photos, one of which is posted below. Now we have a complete documentation on this unique evolution of the 38 Commander hull. Cool eh?
PHOTO OF THE DAY AWARD (January 24, 2007)
Edit Comment: "The photo above was awarded the "Photo of the Day" on January 24 because of the interesting photo composition and great story about how this boat was acquired, and how it is being upgraded now. This boat has the distinction of having been spotted for sale on Ebay, had been identified and discussed here on the Forum, and then re-discovered after it was acquired. Steven is the lucky new owner who reported in to the Forum, and he's presently in the process of getting this interesting piece of Chris Craft boating history ready for service next season!
Nice job Steven!
The following comments were noted on January 24, 2007:
(ABOVE:) Here is a 1971 38’ Sedan Flybridge, with the “second generation” topsides and cabin layout. Steven just acquired this boat, and the photo above shows the unique topside design of the 38 Commander, as it evolved into the first big model change of the cabin. This is the first one of it’s kind to be documented here, and we’re happy to be able to feature photos of this interesting evolution of the Commander hull.
The boat has recently been acquired, it’s on the hard now and it’s being readied for a relocation cruise. Three generations of family members have been able to assist in the fun so far, and this is the stuff great memories are made of. That's Steven's Dad in the photo, by the way, and it's always great to see family members like this getting a piece of the excitement and fun. Congratulations to Steve!
Paul,
forum moderator
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jan 27, 2007 1:59 AM This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jan 25, 2007 11:17 PM
Wes - I have heard these refered to as second generation Commanders. I think they built them in '70 and '71. With the cabin sides moved all the way out to the rub rails the main cabin seems very spacious. The interior paneling is all white and very "mod". These later Commanders, allthough a great boat, don't share the classic Commander styling and heft of construction with the earlier models. I have been told that, as any smart buisness would have done, CC realized they were over building these hulls and pared them down a bit over the years.CW
Chris, I hadn't heard the info about these being lighter in weight, interesting info. If that's the case they would also have been faster if the weight reduction is significant.
This appears to be an "aerodynamic" styling technique that was applied to the Commander and the Catalina boats, while Roamer had the swoopy style all along to some degree and didn't change much. The interiors of these "swoopy" design Commanders don't appeal to me because they're all white and finished with wall paper or plastic laminate, and it's a not as handsome as real mahogany. It is, however, brighter inside, something we've tried to accomplish with lights and mini blinds that open totally.
I don't dislike these boats, but I'd rather say I prefer the older style that looks more along traditional lines.
hello,first i need to say this has got to be the best forum i have ever seen.i review this forum every morning since i purchased this boat.she is currently dry docked in toms river n.j,i plan on running her up the hudson to my hometown of marlboro n.y in the spring, after i go thru all her mechanics. this boat shows only 1000 hrs on the meters with only 2 previous owners.anyway i want to say thanks for all the advice you guys give to us "newbies"
Congratulations! Welcome Aboard! Thanks for the kind words.
December 29 2006, 8:31 AM
Hey Congratulations! This is the only Commander of it's kind in our group right now, and it looks like it could be brought up to a really nice standard. There is a LOT of info here that you can use to restore, maintain, and operate this boat. Look through the MASTER INDEX. The more you look there, the more you will find! As you have opportunites to take photos, etc., please keep us posted on your work and boating fun!
once again great forum!any advice on what i should check on before i run this boat home[ about150 miles].i am not new to boating,just new to one this big.i did the obvious-all belts and hoses,i installed pertronix kits,all new ignition components,new carbs,new fuel pumps with all new lines and double fuel filters with electric pumps for back ups.new stats,im going thru all the wiring now and plan on checking out the generator as well as adjusting the valves in the spring.should i change all riser gaskets? rebuild sherwood pumps? as far as the transmission,shafts,rudders,steering go, this is where my big concern is as this is all new to me.any advice would be helpful!!-thanks again
With an old boat, you never know what's going to present itself as a problem first, second, or third. The longer you own the boat, the more assurance things will go smoothly, but starting off on a 150 mile trip with a new boat, you are very wise to tend to all of the issues you have noted. Even with all of the good work, something will probably still sneak in there to become some sort of an issue.
Unless you rebuild the Sherwood pumps, you have little to no assurance of what the impellers are like. Chances are they're okay, but facts are facts. If you are getting good flow from each motor, the impellers should be okay. Any service history would certainly do you some good. One thing about impellers that are stored in water, they generally have a long shelf life.
Riser gaskets probably are not on the critical path like impellers are, so I wouldn't worry about them.
With all of the new equipment you have installed, it would be very good if you did some cruising as a shakedown prior to the 150-mile trip. Get the motors hot, see how they run, etc. If you have any kind of a vapor lock issue, or whatever, it should manifest itself on the short test runs.
You mentioned you would check the vales in the spring. I'd do it now, before embarking on the 150 mile trip. Pop the valve covers, run your feeler gauge through and see what you have, rather than leaving it to chance. My prev owner had the valves so poorly set on one of my 427 motors, it had no compression at all in one cylinder. Running the motor fast with that setup could have caused me some damage, as the rocker arm was set way too tight.
Hoses, belts, ignition, carbs, filters, sheesh you seem to have covered things well. Have you drawn any fuel off from the bottom of the tank to see what it looks like? I would suggest you get a long fuel hose, and siphon some fuel into a vac container to see if it's clear, or if it has debris. See Curt Hills great thread here http://www.network54.com/Forum/424840/message/1146731677
If your tanks have similar debris in the bottom, it's only a matter of time before you start getting running problems, as it may clog the system before fuel ever even gets to the filters. Wire on a weight to the bottom of your fuel line and draw some off the bottom of the tank, that will tell you what you have. If you get debris you may want to keep on pumping it out.
During your cruise, I would not push it hard. Err on the safe side and run those engines at slow planing speeds. My 38 will plane nicely around 2600 rpm, and the engines are happy at that speed.
Plan your scheduled stops and emergency stops in advance, know what you have at your option in the event you need it.
Where are you running the boat from, and what destination are you headed for? Just curious, as the boat seems to be on the East Coast from quick glance at the ebay info.
Another thread you may want to read through is Mark Wellers maiden voyage, bringing a new boat back on a relatively long run. These initial runs are notorious for bring up problems, becuase the boats generally have been sitting quite some time until they're sold, and then the new owners are anxious to get on the water. http://www.apyc.org/chriscraft/voyage_to_home.htm
Good luck, sounds like an exciting trip.
All the best, take photos!
let me see if i have any luck adding pictures.if i get it right,the gentleman standing next to the boat is my father and the handsome young man on the bow is my 6yr old son nicco
edit comment: thumbnail size photos were posted, the th_ was removed from the image link, and bingo, they're full size now.
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jan 25, 2007 4:11 PM
This is like receiving the first photos from Mars !
January 24 2007, 5:55 PM
The photos are starting to come in, and LOOK !!!
That's actually a very interesting model. The side walkways have been eliminated and this gives more room to the interior. I have only been aboard one of these boats. It's all Commander, but the interior has been lightened in light value because of the more modern times. I would love to see more photos of the interior, etc.
This design change puts the 38 in a much more modern posture than the original 1963 design did (first produced in 64), and we have to remember the days when this boat was facing more modern competition from other manufactures. The design stayed the same from 1964 until 1970 when it changed, so that's a six year run of the same thing before a change. Thankfully they kept the same hull from the rail down, because there is not much that could be done to improve on that!
i really dont care for the interior either.im not sure what im going to do with it
edit comment: Photos pumped up in size:
(you were trying to post the link to the small thumbnail size photo, take your link off the IMG listing in the chart, not off the photo) Send me an email if you need help chriscraftcommander@hotmail.com
Regards, Paul
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jan 25, 2007 4:09 PM
This boat is totally different than my 1966 FXA 38 3004 R.
The boat is a sedan configuration, which mine is not. My helm station is on the Port side, yours is on the Starboard side, and totally modernized like some of the larger Commanders. The sedan configuration allows an enclosed seating "sofa" area up top which is nice, and the cabin below is totally different than my early series Express.
Chris Craft (Dick Avery) totally redesigned the format. The interior color is lighter too, and it gives a totally different feel. I bought my 1966 boat after coming off a 35' Sea Skiff that had lots of wood inside. Since I'm a wood boat guy now (and back then too), owning two wood speedboats, I have always been attracted to wood. We liked the old style wood of the 1966 Commander, but it is dark and it sucks up light that enters the cabin. Your windows look bigger and the light interior reflects light in ways our dark wood can't do. Therefore the feel is totally different and I like the brightness of the interior.
I would suggest living with the boat a season before you decide to do anything drastic like crack a can of paint. People too often do things that don't improve upon what Chris Craft did.
Thanks again for sharing these images with us, it's a rare boat and a very interesting find.
Steven - I feel your pain bro. I am about 2hrs. and 15mins. from my marina too. The drive is a good time to zone out and unwind though. I looked at one of these 71's in Detroit when I was looking for my 38'. I was going from a wood boat to glass already and could not deal with the white interior. They have there good points though I'm sure you will love yours. My favorite thing about this generation of Commander is the dash and instruments with the built in depth sounder and gauges with no needles if I am remembering them right. Send lots of photos, we here on the forum find that stuff very interesting.
Best of luck and speed safely on trips to and fro,
Chris
1965 FFA 38 0005 H "Feelgood"
Good seein you having fun with yur dad and son with the boat. Hard to tell who's having the most fun. One thing for sure, the kid is probably wondering what the ole man got himself into, lol. Good luck, by the way.
Your series of Commander is a little lighter in weight, and therefore a little faster than the early boats. The early boats had to start somewhere, and they defaulted on the side of conservatism. As CC learned from this, they were able to build a strong boat that didn't have to haul the excess weight around.
That's cool to name the boat after your son. I also applaud the inclusion of "family" in the boating hobby, great to see your dad and your son sharing in the excitement. My dad also helped me on my boat projects, and he has as much fun as I do, and we enjoy working together.
A tip about photobucket. When you upload your photos, note the boxes to check about the size of the image. 800 x 600 generally works well on the net, loads quickly, etc.
Thanks for sharing the images, the important thing about this whole endeavor is to "be consicious of the real fun you're having now". Years from now you'll look back and remember how you all worked on the boat. Janet and I did the same thing. We drove 5-1/2 hours each way, for 5 or 6 week-ends in a row, getting our 38 ready for shipping from Cincinnatti to Nashville. We got to know Cincinnatti and had fun working together as a team. Be sure to schedule some sort of event where Mom (and Grand-Mom?)can get involved too, helping with something significant, making some sort of meaningful contribution, so the "whole family" can claim ownership. I would give anything if my Grandparents were still able to help me do "anything" on the boat. As it was, they never got the chance.
I did, however, seize the opportunity years ago, to take my 90+ year old blind grandmother out on the Cumberland River for a cruise in February during an unseasonally nice day. She sat there on the aft deck in the sun as we just drifted ever so slowly, and it was magical.
Windows in the cabin have been pushed outboard on this model
January 26 2007, 8:49 AM
This is a revealing photo. Look at the raised walkway, which gives a lot of additional room to the interior. The windows in the cabin are pushed outwards too. I have not been inside one of these, but I'll bet the interior has a much bigger feel. Interesting photos, thanx.
well it looks like i will make the maiden voyage soon.i have really put in some hours since i owned her.its amazing how new bottom paint really changes everything.i need to change the starbord side cutlass bearing i think.anyway i will post some journey pics,steve
Watch this ! Look at the photo properties on the photos posted above. Do you see the following three characters that preceed Pictures: th_
If you remove those three characters (which stand for "thumbnail") then the photos appear on the forum full size. This is a frequent error with photobucket, be sure to not click on the image for the URL, but go to the box where they give the photo link.
Regards, Paul
PHOTO OF THE DAY AWARD (April 30, 2007)
The photo above was awarded the PHOTO OF THE DAY, and the following comments were noted:
Here is a 1971 38’ Sedan Flybridge, with the “second generation” topsides and cabin layout by Dick Avery. Steven acquired this boat in late December, and the photo above shows the unique topside design of the 38 Commander, as it evolved into the first big model change of the cabin. This design change effectively modernized the design in the 1971 context, and it allowed what was essentially a 1964 design to continue being sold in a competitive marketplace. As previously reported, this modernized cabin roof model is the first one of it’s kind to be documented here, and we’re quite happy to be able to feature photos of this interesting evolution of the Commander hull. The bottom paint job is quite an improvement from those early photos, too!
Steven reports, the boat is now being prepared for it’s initial shakedown cruise under his ownership, and we wish him all the best. Be prepared, however, for those pesky ignition problems, fuel issues, etc. that seem to raise their head at the most inopportune time. Hopefully this cruise will go without a hitch! Thanks for sharing the photos, Steven, please continue to keep us posted !
Paul,
forum moderator
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on May 1, 2007 4:04 PM
The boat is looking really good, good luck on that trip !
April 30 2007, 4:44 PM
Congratulations for the transformation! These big toys take a lot of attention, and once one thing is done, there's always something else to take it's place.
Buck Algonquin probably made the struts for CC, and I am just about dead certain if you take the measurements on yours, you can find an identical item in this listing. I would call and ask, as they may already have the part identified to your boat.
well i made the trip just fine,with the exeception of i had to run it on one engine the whole way.the starboard transmission decided to blow out the rear seal the day before.will post pics later
Glad to hear you made the trip, but really sorry to hear it was on one engine. These things happen, it's part of boating. Don't feel as though this is bad luck or anything, because it just comes with the territory and things like this happen to everyone from time to time. This is especially true to the rare breed of people who like vintage boats
Hello Steven, and congratulations for your Commander purchase. I read through the ebay info and it sounds like you got yourself a well-cared-for Commander. Reading some of the info you have posted, it also sounds like you took after all of the things that might represent a running liability too.
These boats are solid all the way around, and if the previous owner was a responsible guy, which it appears he was, then the boat should be in very good mechanical condition. 1000 hours on one of these big motors is nothing.
Be sure to look at the electrical connections at batteries, and importantly, the ground and the positive terminal at the starter too. Be sure to also check the ignition switch itself. I learned something here on the forum, and that is if the ign switch is wiggling a bit as you use it, sooner or later the wires will fail due to fatigue, and mine did about three weeks after I read about the potential problem here.
I would change the oil ad filters if you don't know how many hours are on it. Just my four cents worth.
Re: 1970 38 Commander ( Brochure Photos and Info Scans )
January 24 2007, 3:30 PM
thanks for all the interest dave and paul. i am now in the process of hooking up gps as well as a new vhf.this boat is still dated 1971 as it has all the original equipment-rotary phone,radio.etc.the problem is the boat is dry docked by point pleasant n.j and i live in wallkill n.y so i have to travel 140 miles to work on it. i go every other weekend.i plan on running her home in july.i still would like to siphon some of the fuel to see what the bottom of the tanks look like.i should be able to handle any issues that come along as long as its nothing major.i pulled all valve covers and there is no sludge build up whatsoever so to me thats a real good sign of regular oil changes which adds to my confidence in this boat.i had the bottom soda blasted,i did not want to lose to many days scraping,so the next big thing is bottom paint.im looking forward to restoring this boat to modern day standards and comfort.again thanks for this great forum.you guys have helped me a great deal,steve
Glad to hear a positive update too. I just saw Roy's post about getting a white belt and wearing your shirt open, ha ha, still laughing. Authenticity is one thing, but I'm not sure you want to go that far.
Of course, you could get the Roy Orbison hair and sun glasses too, may as well make it an ensemble. Get a 1971 Caddy, dress like Elvis, drive a 1971 Commander!
People would talk
Springtime is on the way, and soon! (Global warming!)
Reviewing the brochure again, I just noticed the 33-mph speed rating on this boat, which is pretty well justifying speed claims by owners over the years with the same 300-hp motors. The initial water test of this model was with the 275 Lincolns and different props, and Chris Craft was able to eek out 31-mph with that combination. This was verified in independent testing and that speed rating stayed with the boat even after they changed to the more powerful motors and different props.
Interesting how we learn more about the series as time goes on.
The more I look at this model of the 38, the more I appreciate the design. If given the task of updating the original 1964 38 Commander design (which incorporated some CC design elements from boats all the way back into the 50's and 40's) it would not have been an easy job to do.
Upon review now 37 years later, it becomes apparent that much good work was put into this 1970 edition of the 38 hull. Yes it is different, but that was the mission in order to give the boat a fresh look and keep the sales competitive. If put along side the initial Commander design, many of us would pick the older design becuase first of all, it is a good design, and secondly, we're familiar with it.
The initial 38 design had run for 7 years now, and even though these boats were superbly built and had a great reputation, automotive designs were changing every year during this era and Chris Craft was undoubtedly feeling the need to change.
The 1970 38 Commander has more interior space than any other previous 38 Commander model. Almost every single element from the waterline up has been tweaked.
On the inside my first reaction is admittedly biased, due to owning a boat with a (dark) wood interior, and having previously owned a wood Chris Craft that had an almost the identical interior to my 1966 38 Commander Express. I love wood and it was one reason we warmed up to the 1966 fiberglass boat so fast, but admittedly even though that wood is beautiful, that interior is dark, especially when compared to the light interior of this 1970 model. By comparison, the interior of this model is the difference between night and day. Since "everything is spent light", (Louis Kahn, famous architect), the psychological and functional value of the additional interior light on occupants during an outing is probably more significant than many of us would ever recognize on first blush. This model feels like an entirely different boat.
I have only been aboard one of these "second generation" 38 Commanders. At the time I was unable to recognize just WHY the interior of this boat looked so different. I didn't realize the cabin was wider, and I didn't pick up on all of the small but carefully executed tweaks Dick Avery put into this design. I did recognize the fact that the interior was very bright, like someone turned on the lights, and it is a testament to the reflective quality of the light interior, as opposed to the absorptive nature of a darker wood. I didn't realize the interior was wider at the time, there was just too much to take in too fast. After looking over the overall design in retrospect several years later, including the floor plan layout too, I recognize and appreciate all the drafting table work that went into this model. Interior boat design is a game of inches, every inch counts. The additional width of the cabin was used to great effect on this model.
The port and starboard cabin windows are pushed outboard from earlier models, and this gives a different exterior look of course, but it also translates into significant changes inside too. On the outside the pathway to the forward deck takes a different route. Instead of walking around a toe-rail protected pathway, this model routes you up over the galley and down the cabin roof. On the inside the results provide a significantly larger interior feeling. The interior layout has changed to work with these few significant inches of extra room on each side of the cabin. While the change may seem small, the tweak is a significant interior change. In reality, the interior width of this cabin, from interior window glass to interior window glass, could be as much as 18" wider!
The side profile of the boat looks faster due to the more streamlined shape of the cabin, and in fact, this model is faster. More on that later.
On the exterior as noted, there is no wood toe rail on this model, which is a departure from the traditional CC layout that has been used on many more models than just the Commander. The new design is, however, a serious attempt by the designer to produce a boat with updated features enabling it to remain in a competitive market. Looking at the side profile of the hull, it is apparant to me that every single line has been studied, because every single line from the toe rail up has been changed. The length of the helm station appears to be longer, the rooftop seems different, the rake of the side windows at the cabin are clearly changed, the forward cabin windows and the swooping fiberglass sidebar extension around the forward windows is one of the most significant obvious changes, and of course the width of the cabin roof as it extends all the way out to the port and starboard side of the hull is a big change that is not readily noticed. The boat looks diffrent, but it is tough to tell just what all has changed. All the small changes combine to give this model a very distinct look on the water.
I wish I was aware of all the differences at the time I was able to tour the particular 1970 38 Commander that was open for touring that day. Maybe I'll get the opportunity to go aboard another one sometime, and this next time I'll be very curious to take another (better informed) look at everything.
These boats look good on the water. Many of us tend to immediately compare the initial Commander design to this newer version, and that is natural. We're unable to view the newer design on it's own merits becuase we are so accustomed to seeing the original design (a design, by the way, which draws many cabin and windshield elements from earlier wood Chris Craft models). The early Commander design is a good one, traditional Chris Craft. This newer version is still "all Chris Craft", the design was executed by one of Chris Craft's biggest proponents of all time, and there is a lot to be said for this model if it is evaluated on it's own merit.
I would say to anyone who owns one of these boats, realize what you have, there are not many of these out there, and due to slightly reduced overall weight, perhaps, Chris Craft has identified this 38' Commander with a higher published top speed than any other 38. The tough job of updating such a good classic initial design was done well, while retaining much of the quality and feel of the original design. Like I said earlier, the more I look at this model, the more I appreciate it.
hi paul, thanks for the interest my year-if you want i can send better interior pics.im still working on her.i pulled the heads off the starboard motor and had them done[2 exhaust valves kept sticking]i plan on pulling the other heads this winter. hopefully i get most of the demons out this season[anyone know a good exorcist?], hope everyone's summer is going well, steve
hi paul, hope all is well.i thank you for the photos.think i'll look on ebay to find some nice chic 70's attire.i would love to be the talk of my yacht club.by the way do you think a peace symbol on the back of niccos38 would go to far? all the best,steve
I also get a kick out of seeing some of those outfits too. The ones on the XK-22 scans (was that really Chris Wade modeling in his younger years, lol?) show bell bottoms. Having been there, done that, makes it all that much more fun.
When Norm and Jim Wangard photograph for their fine magazine, CLASSIC BOATING, they always ask people to wear period clothing, so as to not detract from the quality of the image. You will never see a photo in their magazine with someone wearing a NFL jersey, thankfully. With some of the older Chris Crafts from the 1930s and 1940s the clothing really adds a lot.
If we go to period clothing on a 1970s vintage Commander, they're not quite old enough for many people to pick up on the gig, ha ha. We might just look like nerds, lol, ha ha.
Here's the image that caught my eye the other day, aboard this 33' Coho (Catalina hull).
That sure looks like Mark Weller at the helm (wearing a tux). Now, how many guys have you seen actually tooling around the harbor wearing a tux, with all the women wearing evening gowns! Yes, I know Mark and Deb do it, but hey, he's the Commodore of a major yacht club and they're the exception
Hot off the press ( more photos of this model, from Somerville, MA )
July 4 2008, 10:40 AM
Here is Take-A-Break, a late series 38 Commander, probably a 1970 or 71 model, kindly sent in by an anonymous contributor. Thank you, whomever you are, and please feel comfortable to identify yourself and share more info about this Commander!
Regards,
Paul
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jul 4, 2008 5:37 PM
