Since launch in early May,I've not had to do much close quarter maneuvering, but I was always confident in the boat handling skills I aquired in the years that I owned our 31'.This past Wed. as I was idling down the creek,a large sailing yacht backed out of the transient slip of a local marina directly into my path.I pulled the transmissions into reverse hoping to avoid a collision and to my suprise, the boat continued forward and not slowing at all.Giving it more throttle made no difference at all.
Luckily, a crash was avoided but left us a bit shaken.I know that this boat weighs considerably more than our 31 but given the size of the wheels(23")it should stop when put into reverse and it's given some throttle. I returned to the dock and began to investigate because I knew that something was not right. I lifted the hatches and observed each shaft when put into reverse. There was no rotation on the starboard side and the port had very little that only decreased with an increase in throttle.I guess that explains why the boat continued to make headway while in reverse.
A quick scan of my Paragon manual that was onboard had a section that stated that the reverse gear band might need adjustment as wear dictates.It's a real simple adjustment and in less than 10 min.we once again had a nice, positive reverse.I couldn't believe it was that easy as I had visions of much bigger problems.
Have great weekend.
Regards,
Steve
edit comment: "Paragon HJ7" was added to the title of this post to assist in cross referencing and the search feature. Paul
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jan 6, 2008 8:40 PM
This is an excellent post, I have never adjusted my transmissions, and I trust there are many others who have not as well. Please list the transmission type by model, and the process you used to do the adjustment. I think this will be of keen interest to others.
The adjustment was made on a 427 powered HJ7 gear and is clearly detailed in the service manual but I'll try to explain briefly here. Looking down at the starboard trans.,on the right side of the housing and on the same centerline as the brass Paragon gear position indicator plate, you'll see a threaded stud(1/2-13thd) with two flats machined on the end (for a wrench)and a jamb nut (3/4") tightened against the housing. With the engine running at idle and in neutral, loosen the jamb nut and tighten the threaded stud until the shaft starts to reverse and then back the stud off 1/4-1/2 turn and re-tighten the jamb nut.The port trans. adjustment stud is located on the opp. side of the housing. It seems that this is one of the easiest adjustments that I've done so far but it was THE MOST EFFECTIVE!!. No reverse, no stopping. Hope I was clear, but if not,you'll find the info in your Paragon Manual.
Best to all,especially those at the BRR.
Steve
Steve, if you get the chance, please list basically how this is done. I believe I'm running the same Paragons you are (HJ7) and I'm interested in how difficult this was, how you did it, how long it took, etc.
Hi Dave.The procedure for the adjustment of the reverse gear band is described in my post on 8/19(RE: Good Post Steve).It's easily done and both sides took a total of not more 20 min.I'm going to the boat this PM and if you have a Paragon manual,I'll check which page it's on and post that as well.
Regards, Steve
To all who might be interested,the procedure can be found on pg.27 of the Paragon manual (I believe my copy is the 67'-68' version) under the heading "ADJUSTMENTS". If I had a scanner,I would have posted the entire page.
Regards, Steve
Thanks for the reference, here's what my 427 owner manual says
August 21 2006, 5:07 PM
Steve, is this the same instruction in your Paragon manual? Please confirm. I didn't have a scanner here at the house, so I just typed in the directions off my 427 Operator's Manual
Regards, Paul
"HJ-7 Reverse Gear
(Reverse Gear Adjustment)
The forward clutch is direct acting and has sufficient travel to compensate for wear. Therefore, there are no adjustments for the forward drive. If there should be a dragging of the clutch in forward gear, this possibly could be caused by the lack of a positive neutral. The adjustment for positive neutral and reverse is accomplished in a single procedure.
To make the proper adjustment the engine must be running at idle speed and the control lever must be in the neutral position. Remove the reverse band acorn screw nut from the reverse band adjusting screw and loosen the jam nut.
Turn the adjusting screw IN until very tight. Gear will now be reversing. Loosen adjusting screw slowly by using a continuous motion of the wrench. As the positive neutral position is approached, the coupling will show a hesitancy to turn. Continue loosening action of the wrench until coupling has a positive stop.
Continue loosening nut approximately an additional 1/8 turn beyond positive neutral and tighten the locknut. It is important that the continuous motion of the wrench be followed carefully in order to arrive at proper adjustment.
Test run the boat in open water at 3000 to 3500 RPM for approximately five minutes to determine if adjustment has been properly made.
Should a white vaporish smoke be evident around the breather, the reverse band is still gripping the drum and will result in early failure. After proper adjustment has been made, replace the acorn nut on the lock screw. This adjustment is necessary ONLY at the time of original installation and periodically to compensate for wear of the lining of the reverse band."
Re: Thanks for the reference, here's what my 427 owner manual says
August 22 2006, 6:00 PM
Paul, yours seems to add a few more details.Word for word, here is what my manual says:
The forward clutch is direct acting and has sufficient travel to compensate for wear. Therefore, there are no adjustments for forward drive.
The adjustment for neutral and reverse is accomplished in a single procedure. To make the proper adjustment, the engine must be running at idle speed and the control lever must be in the neutral position. Remove the reverse band adjusting screw nut (113) from the reverse band adjusting screw (111) and loosen the jamb nut (112). Turn the adjusting screw IN firmly until tight. Gear will now be reversing. Loosen the adjusting screw just enough to get a good neutral. Loosen an additional 1/4 turn, tighten the jamb nut and replace the acorn nut. This adjustment is necessary ONLY at the time of original installation and periodically to compensate for wear of the lining of the reverse band.
As you can see, your manual involves a few more steps, which I'll do next time I'm at the boat. Also, neither trans. had an acorn nut on the adjusting screw although the section view A-A shows one. But again, a fairly easy procedure. Thanks for the info.
Best Regards, Steve
After reading this thread I double checked my paragons. The only number there looked like a serial number which is #6C-6974 P34BL Z7712R. And I don't have a hardcopy manual on them. Can anybody identify it, or from my previous pictures?
P34 Paragons used in many applications by Chris Craft I have the same transmissions in my boat the P 300 series is the actual tranny the differences are the gear reduction or lack there of P-34 is a 2.5 to 1 reduction if you see PV in the serial number it means V Drive Here is the rest of the story so to speak
P-31R or L Direct Drive the R and L are for the rotataion
P-32AR or AL 1.5:1
P-33AR or AL 2.0:1 307 Q Motor
P-33R or L 2.0:1 327 Q Motor
P-34BR or BL 2.5:1
P-35 BR or BL 3.0:1
From my Q motor parts manual for what it is worth.
I know for a fact Tim has P-34BR & BL in his Commander with 427 300 hp motors so they are rated much higher than my 235 hp.
I have been using the Dextron III which from what I understand is the "new version" of Type A.
Though now that makes me think. I have not changed the tranny oil in the starboard engine yet. (time issues) So I am not positive what is in that one.
But I did change it in the port engine. (using Dextron III) And that is the one where I have been finding tranny oil in the bilge after out running the enigne. And I still can't find where the leak is.
From what I've discovered and understand, the Dexron III is "backwards compatible to 1949", see article excerpt copied from our MASTER FILE INDEX below:
Automatic Transmission Fluid (This is included because many of our old boats were specified to use ATF designations that are no longer available, such as the "TYPE-A" recommended by Chris Craft).
The first automatic transmissions of 65 years ago operated on motor oil that was dyed red to help identify leaks. Automatic transmission fluid (ATF) has since evolved into one of the most complex lubricants in the oil industry.
When engineers design an automatic transmission, they consider the frictional properties of the ATF. All ATF types fall into two groups-(hose that contain friction modifiers and those that don't. Friction-modified ATF reacts to lower the coefficient of static friction as a clutch or band locks up. This creates a very smooth shift. Unmodified ATF provides a higher coefficient of friction as the clutch or band locks up and creates a firmer shift.
The first friction-modified ATF was Type A, introduced as a GM spec in the mid-'50 s. It evolved to Type A, Suffix A and eventually to Dexron fluid, introduced by GM in 1967. The first unmodified ATF was Type F, introduced by Ford in 1959 and used in all Ford transmissions through 1976 (and severed after that date).
ATF choices stayed pretty simple through the '60s and '70s. At the end of the latter decade, however, variations in ATF were increasing. Dexron had evolved into Dexron-II, and Ford introduced Type CJ, a friction-modified ATF, in the late '70s. Ford also specified Types G and H fluid for specific transmissions. Types H and CJ didn't last very long, as Mercon was developed to reduce the number of fluids required for Ford products.
Mercon is a friction-modified fluid, similar to Dexron. Mercon specifically does not replace Type F or G fluids for transmissions requiring unmodified fluid. Mercon, however, is the preferred fluid for most 1983 and later Ford automatics, all Nissans and some Mazdas, Jeeps and Eagles. Dexron-II is a secondary recommendation or okay for topping up some transmissions. Today, Mercon-V is specified for some Ford transmissions, and Mercon-SP is used in some 2003 and later Ford trucks.
Be aware, though, that C4 and C3 transmissions through 1979 and 1980, respectively, require Type F. Also, Jatco transmissions in Courier trucks used Type F through 1982, and all FMXs required Type F until the last one was built in 1981. Starting to get confused? It gets worse.
Chrysler had long recommended Dexron-series fluids for its automatics, but it began specifying MOPAR ATF-Plus (Type 7176) for 1987 and later transmissions. This fluid evolved to ATF+3 and ATF+4. MOPAR ATF is friction-modified like Dexron but specifically formulated for the electronic control programs of Chrysler s transmission control modules (TCMs). The MOPAR fluids let the torque converter clutch work in a unique partial-lockup mode. Chrysler cautions that if the wrong ATF is installed, the TCM can't regulate partial-lockup slippage correctly. Result: converter clutch shudder.
The older fluid recommended by Mitsubishi and Hyundai, Diamond SP, was similar to Chrysler's ATF+3, but the Diamond SP2 is quite different.
Toyota is another carmaker noted for unique ATF requirements. Toyota calls for its own Type T or Type T-IV fluid in certain vehicles. Most notable among these are the all-wheel-drive Camrys and Corollas built in the late 1980s and early '90s. If you fill one of these transmissions with ATF other than the specified Toyota Type T, your customer will most likely have to buy a new trans in 5000 to 6000 miles.
Some disagreement currently surrounds the fourth generation of Dexron fluids. Dexron-III was introduced in 1995 to supersede previous Dexron varieties. GM considers Dexron-III a fill-for-life ATF for some late-model transmissions, and it has a couple of notable features. It greatly improves seal life and resists oxidation better than previous fluids. It also is formulated for the control programs of GM's transmission modules. It is, in fact, one of GM's attempts to eliminate torque converter lockup shudder.
GM says that Dexron-III is backwards-compatible with all GM automatics built since 1949. Other carmakers aren't so convinced. DaimlerChrysler continues to specify ATF-Plus and some proprietary Mercedes fluids for its vehicles. Many Asian carmakers continue to call for Dexron-II and specifically say not to use Dexron-III because of some reported shifting problems. Time and aftermarket economics will sort it out.
From simple Type A and Type F fluids of 40 years ago, ATF varieties have grown to no fewer than 15 specifications from 10 different car-building corporations. Don't try to memorize all of the details. Rely on your Chek-Chart specification guides from MOTOR to help you select the right fluid for your customers' vehicles.
I figure it will still be on the shelfs for many more years, but here is a relevant article about ATF fluids that are changing. It's based on Mercon, but has a lot to say about Dexron too.
Ernie
-----------------------------------
Ford Pulls the Plug on Mercon
By Lisa Tocci
For over a decade, Ford Motor Co. has licensed its trademarked Mercon automatic transmission fluid for the service-fill marketplace. Last week, the automaker announced it is going to retire that specification, in a move designed to encourage the lubricants industry to embrace its replacement, the stringent Mercon V spec.
Speaking April 4 in Dearborn, Mich., to the SAE Technical Committee 3 on ATF, Gear Oils and Greases, Ford’s Chintan Ved announced that effective July 1, no new Mercon licenses will be issued. All remaining Mercon licenses will expire on or before June 30, 2007, leaving a clear field thereafter for Mercon V.
Ved, based at Ford’s Automatic Transmission New Product Center in Livonia, Mich., is the company’s lead development engineer for ATF. He noted that although his company has recommended Mercon V for all vehicles for the past seven or eight years, most Ford models on the road continue to be serviced by Mercon. Mercon V, however, is a far better product that more closely resembles the factory-fill ATF which Ford has used for over eight years. It requires the use of a more shear-stable viscosity index improver, and Group II or Group II-plus base oil to meet its viscosity and oxidation targets.
“All transmissions recommending Mercon ATF can now be serviced with Mercon V,” Ved later told Lube Report. “Mercon V is a tighter specification, requiring better anti-oxidation, antiwear and anti-shudder properties from service-fill ATFs. We are doing this because we want to ensure our customers get the better fluid.
“We are in the process of sending official letters to all our licensing program participants, advising them of the change,” he continued. Ford also licenses Mercon SP, for servicing its six-speed automatics, and that will not change. In all, Ford has some 450 products under its three current commercial licenses (Mercon, Mercon V and Mercon SP). Fees to license Ford’s Mercon trademarks ranged from $2,000 to $3,000 per product last year, depending on whether the license holder is an original formulator, a reblender, or a rebrander.
ATF represents about 13 percent of the U.S. automotive lubricants market; after engine oils it is the second-largest volume of product sold. ATF sales have grown steadily over the past 10 years, as the nation’s vehicle population grows and automatics continue to displace manual transmissions. Respondents to the National Petrochemical and Refiners Association’s 2004 Report on U.S. Lubricating Oil and Wax Sales said they sold 197 million gallons of ATF, versus the 167 million gallons reported in 1998.
Mercon V today represents 10 percent of this volume, versus just 1 percent in 1998. However, by far the most popular ATF continues to be Dexron/Mercon fluid, which can meet the basic Mercon spec as well as requirements for General Motors’ trademarked Dexron III fluid. NPRA data shows that around 59 percent of ATF sales in the United States meet both Dexron III and Mercon.
Last July, however, General Motors announced it was closing the door on its Dexron III category, and planned to license only Dexron VI in the future. Its Dexron III licenses all will expire on Dec. 31, 2006. Like Mercon V, Dexron VI is a more robust and shear-stable product, and requires the use of Group II or II-plus base oils. The two are different enough in shift and friction characteristics, though, that GM’s move doomed the Dexron/Mercon confluence.
For those blenders who have been waiting for the other shoe to drop, Ford now has inked an end-date for regular Mercon ATF licenses. After June 30, 2007, blenders will be able to claim their products meet Dexron VI or Mercon V – but only separately.
I was reading through the paragon threads this evening between football disasters and saw your note. According to the thread posted today, you're running the P3 series in a 2.5 gear reduction.
My port transmission drifts a little in neutral. (Propeller turns forward.) It's a P-series on a 427 in a 36''73 sport fish.
I've checked the fluid and added a little. Now level is 3mm above the center line on the dipstick. This should be correct.
Propeller still drifts. I pulled the shifter slowly towards reverse until it engages. The drift does not stop until the direction reverses for reverse engagement. Is there anything minor I can do to countermeasure this condition short of major work?
Man, you described my port tranny to a "T". It has been doing that as long as I have owned it (4 years) Just enough to crawl forward a little. In fact, I can stop it by grabbing the shaft. It's worse when it's cold. I just sort of monitor it for a while and edge it toward reverse some and eventually it stops. All this time I kind of figured it was the nature of the beast. It does not seem to be getting any worse with time. It's not enough trouble to want to pull the transmission - yet.
2. Change transmission fluid to a different friction capability
3. Pull the transmission and rebuild it.
(This is as I understand it, may be wrong, so all I'm doing here is sharing what I think I know about the topic, until such time someone who may know better, offers better information.)
My choice in the matter would be choice #1, especially since when docking I always have both hands on the gear selectors anyway, it's just not an issue having a little slip on a shaft like that. Personally, I wouldn't worry about it.
Regarding alternative #2, I don't have any info I can really share, but I do know there are numerous versions of ATF out there, some with more or less friction capabilities.
Here is what I found about the ATF subject matter when looking through our MASTER INDEX Files .
The P series has a P 200, P 300 and P 400 model. The 200, 300, 400 part of the equation designates the gear size, which is not directly tied to the reduction, but more so the load capacity of the transmission.
The 1, 2, 3, 4, designation on a transmission correlates like so:
1 = direct drive
2 = 1.5:1
3 = 2.0:1
4 = 2.5:1
Therefore a P 34 would be the Paragon 300 series in a 2.5:1 gear reduction.
Paragon P & HJ Transmissions; how they work, and various troubleshooting tips !
January 25 2008, 1:23 PM
Transmissions,
Read a post recently about the shafts turning slowly forward when the transmissions were in neutral. The question was; how do I get it to stop doing that?
Answer; you probably can’t, and that is OK. If it is turning slowly, 3 to 5 RPM, and you can reach down and stop the rotation by hand, it is fine. Why? That takes a bit of explaining.
The Pargon P and HJ series transmissions we all seem to have and love are essentially power shift transmissions. What is a power shift transmission? Well, all automatic transmissions are power shift transmissions, but not all power shift transmissions are automatic.
The term Power Shift means that you can shift it into or out of gear, or from one gear to another while it is under power with out damaging it. You don’t have to de-couple the transmission from the engine to shift gears like a car with a manual transmission. Say from forward to reverse at 800 RPM while docking the boat, or from reverse to forward at 2500 RPM after backing out of the semi trailer with the fork lift. (The drive wheels spin…a lot, this is why most loading docks have black streaks all over them.)
How it works;
In its purest sense a power shift transmission is a constant mesh gear set (all gears are meshed with each other all of the time) with two clutch packs, one for each direction. The clutch packs are held released by spring pressure from springs inside the clutch drum. When hydraulic pressure is applied to the piston inside the clutch drum at the end of the stack of plates and discs also inside the clutch drum, the spring pressure is over come and the pack locks up. When this happens the input shaft, which is splined to the inside of the discs and plates, is locked to the output shaft, which is splined to the clutch drum, and the propeller shaft turns.
Normally the two clutch packs are arranged side by side in the transmission case, and each clutch drum has a gear on both ends of it. Each clutch drum gear is meshed to an output gear below and between them, which is splined to the output shaft of the transmission. The gear at the other end of the clutch pack, the input side, is splined to the discs and turned by a gear on the input shaft. When the engine is running the clutch packs spin in opposite directions. When the clutch pack to the right is locked up the output shaft gear turns one way, when the left pack is locked up and the right one released, the output shaft turns the other direction. Thing to remember, when the engine is running all of this stuff is turning. The only reason the output shaft does not turn is that there is no line pressure in the clutch packs to lock them up.
FYI, the two paragraphs above are a pretty good description of an old Borg-Warner Velvet Drive marine transmission.
Our Paragons are similar, but different, naturally. Instead of using two clutch packs, we only have one, and that one is splined to the output shaft through a gear to make forward gear. To replace the missing clutch pack; at the end of the clutch drum there is a planetary gear case that is splined to the input shaft running all the way through the clutch drum, and into the planetary gear set inside the planetary gear case. A planetary gear set is two or three gears (the planets) that are meshed to a gear in their centre, (the sun gear), and have their shafts connected to their outer case. At the end of the planetary gear case is the output gear, (which is the sun gear in the planetary gear set) that is connected to output shaft. The transmission also has a brake band to stop the planetary gear case from turning. You can truthfully say that your Commander has a brake! It is just that nobody can see it.
How it works;
To go forward, you apply hydraulic pressure to the clutch pack, the pack locks up, and clamps the entire clutch drum assembly along with the planetary gear case together. The planetary gears do not move independently, they rotate as a unit with the shaft, clutch drum and planetary gear case. The gear on the output shaft (reduction shaft in Pargonise) connected to the prop shaft turns in the direction of engine rotation, and the boat goes forwards.
When you select reverse pressure from the clutch pack is dumped from the pack and directed to a servo piston in the transmission case. When the servo piston gets oil pressure, it moves and pushes on the brake band which then clamps the planetary gear case to stop it from turning. When the planetary gear case stops turning the input shaft (which is still turning unless the engine stalled) can’t turn the planetary gear case as it is stopped by the brake band. The input shaft also can’t turn the clutch drum, the pack is unpressurized, the only thing left that can turn is the planetary gear set inside the gear case. Because every thing else either can’t or won’t turn the planetary gears start turning independently from the gear case, and the forward clutch drum. When you connect one gear to another, if gear A is turning to the right, then gear B will turn to the left. Thus, with the input shaft turning in the direction of engine rotation, then the planetary gear set has to turn in the opposite direction, When the planetary gear set turns opposite of engine rotation, it turns the output shaft in reverse, and the boat backs up.
Now, back to the question.
Remember a long while ago when I said that these are constant mesh transmissions, and that when the engine was turning, every thing except the output shaft was also turning with the transmission in neutral?
It is the nature of a power shift transmission to want to spin the output shaft ever so slowly due to the drag of unpressurized oil coating everything in the clutch packs. When released a typical clutch pack will only have between 0.10 and 0.20 inch clearance between the clutch plates and pressure plate that they push against to lock up. A two clutch pack power shift transmission on a test bench will spin in the direction of whichever clutch was the last one engaged. If it has been a few minutes since you shut the test bench down, when you start it back up whichever clutch pack has the least clearance will cause the output shaft to creep. If the spec is 0.14 to 0.20 one of them will always end up being 0.15, and the other 0.17, that is just the way life is.
An inline power shift, like the automatic transmission in your pickup, or a Paragon, will always slowly spin in the forward direction in neutral. To go into reverse we have to activate a planetary gear set, which requires line pressure to apply a servo piston, pressure that we don’t have because the transmission is in neutral.
A Science Experiment you can do at home, if you’re really bored. Jack the truck up, take the drive shaft out, put the gear selector in neutral, start the engine. Crawl back under the truck; watch the drive shaft yoke in the transmission spin slowly. Hint; shut the engine off to put it back into park, if you don’t you will likely damage the parking pawl.
The reason that the truck, or forklift, or road grader does not just creep off is due to the weight of the machine and the resistance to movement through the final drive and at the drive wheels. The clutch pack is unpressurized, and does not have enough oomph to move any of the things it is connected to. A propeller sitting in water encounters very little resistance when the boat is setting still, thus the prop shaft will spin slowly forward when the transmission is in neutral. It is caused by parasitic drag of the oil in the clutch packs.
With a Paragon P or HJ series transmission if the shaft were spinning slowly in reverse, you would have a problem, and should be checking the shift linkage. For the transmission to spin at any speed in reverse there has to be either pressure applied to the reverse servo or you have the band adjustment too tight and the transmission is not in neutral, it is in reverse or somewhere close to reverse.
I would be more worried if the shaft did not slowly spin forward with the transmission in neutral. I would be worrying that the shaft packing was too tight, that a shaft was bent, a strut was damaged, a bearing getting ready to seize in the transmission or that the friction discs in the clutch drum were worn out and causing excessive clearance in the clutch drum.
I have to compliment you on the in depth look into a Paragon transmission like this. It never ceases to amaze me what kind of tech info exists out there on the net, and this is an example.
I have often wondered about the slow rotation of the shaft, and whether or not it's actually pushing the boat around when I'm trying to dock, etc. I suppose it is, but your "stopping it by hand" comment diminishes this concern, since there is really no power being transmitted of any magnitude.
Great write up, it helps in the overall understanding of the machinery we're running.
I agree with Tom's comments, this is an insightful piece of work. Interesting for the motorhead contingent, which I'm proud to be a member.
Do you know of any affect the various types of transmission fluid would have on a piece of heavy equipment like a Paragon transmission. We've been using Dexron-III, but I was wondering if you or any of the others would have experience, good or bad, with other types.
Like you I use Dextron III in mine simply because it is the follow on to the original Hydromatic Type A that was specified for these transmissions back in the day.
Just now there are a huge number of different transmission fluid formulations. Seems like every manfacturer has it's own special fluid. Having said that, there are only really three types of transmission fluid and they are;
1. Friction modified and tinted red.
2. Un-modified and and tinted red.
3. JD-20 hydraulic oil. It is not tinted any color.
The original Typa A, and all of it's follow on fluids are friction modified. They have an additive package that makes them "grippier" which enables the transmission to lock up tighter. Just about every fluid that has a trade name that ends in "on" ie, Dextron, Mercon, etc, are enhanced. It is tinted red so if it leaks you will be able to know what it is. Early automatic transmissions tended to leak a bit.
Unmodified and tinted red is the old trusty Ford spec Type F.
JD-20 is a John Deere spec 20 wt hydraulic oil that is used in just about every thing from modern power shift transmissions to implement hydraulic systems. The Case backhoe on the trailer next to you at the stop light? it is full of JD-20 every where except the engine crankcase. So is every forklift, boom truck, stick crane, truck lift gate, the power steering pump on your car, and the trim tabs on my boat. It is wonderful stuff that mixes with anything.
What oil you should use is dependant on what the friction discs, and clutch plates in the transmission are made out of, and how close the clearences are. It is also dependant on how hot you are going to let the transmission get, and what kind of line pressure you are going to run.
Good ole Dextron III that works so well in our Paragons works because the clutch plates and brake band were designed for it, and because we only run 60 PSI of line pressure. The fact that normal transmission temps in our application don't get much over 160 degrees F helps a lot too.
Dextron III in a Clark-Hearth long drop 4 speed dragging a 80,000# container handler around is a disaster. Normal operating temp for it is right at 200 degrees, line pressures are at 250 psi, (the lubrication pressure, the oil that is oiling the bearings and running through the coolers is 60 to 70 psi) and in that application Dextron will glue the clutch discs together so the thing is stuck in gear in about 500 hours. (Seems like it is always third gear reverse)
If you put Type F in the boat, the shaft would likely stop creeping, but, you would be creating a host of new problems. It would not shift into reverse as quickly, and eventually it would start to slip in forward. Ford always ran a bit more line pressure than GM or Chrysler in their transmissions, and a lot more than our Paragons, so they did not need, or want, friction modifiers.
One of the hot setups back in the '60s if you were street racing a GM or Chrsyler built car with an automatic was to jack the line pressure in your transmission up to about 260 psi, then change the fluid to Type F. The tranny did not last very long, but with out the friction modifiers in the fluid you got instant, and really firm gear shifts. At $20 a gear between this light and the next one a guy could make more than enough to overhaul the transmission every month of so.
JD-20 in a Paragon would be a lot like the Type F, it would take a bit longer to fail however, JD-20 is a 20 wt. oil, and Type F is only a 10 wt. oil. The thicker oil would keep things going a bit longer.
The only thing we need to worry about is new formulations of Dextron, and what they do the the additive package. I take some comfort in the fact that here are a slug of GM and Chrysler cars from the fiftys and sixtys out there, some of which are now worth well into the top end of 6 figures. The old car lobby will insist that someone make transmission fluid for them. If it will work in a '67 GTO, it will work in our Paragons.
Three cheers ! Jeff, that's great tech information
January 27 2008, 3:30 PM
I just now saw your post, and it's invaluable to anyone running a Paragon. There's been a lot of talk about what is and is not good. Seeing info like this coming in is great, and it will most certainly be placed in the proper section of the MASTER INDEX FILES upon updating.
Regards,
Hope to see you at the Huron Rendezvous in August!
I got my transmission rebuilt for nothing. Out of the water, my propeller seems to turn at idle speed with the engine. In the water, it barely turns at all. I intially got it rebuit when I first got the boat, before putting it in the water, because a respected online source told me it wasnt right. It acted the same after the rebuild. Oh well, now I know the tranny is good. Now for a new 327 block......
I have a 1962 chris craft connie with 431 lincolns and paragon model #hjac25-0. I was wondering if you would be able to help me with this transmission. I am looking for some steel clutch plates that need replacing and am not able to find anywhere, help of any kind would be appreciated.
I have a 1962 chris craft connie with 431 lincolns and paragon model #hjac25-0. I was wondering if you would be able to help me with this transmission. I am looking for some steel clutch plates that need replacing and am not able to find anywhere, help of any kind would be appreciated.
