And the RPM levels at which they were achieved. I have just returned from the milkhouse with the dyno data from my 427 dyno mule. I will post the actual numbers later tonight to give you guys a chance to guess. This engine was built starting with the short block that Blair Patrick ran at the 2006 Engine Masters challenge. Here are the engine specifications:

-Pond cast iron block, fitted with smaller than stock main bearings for reduced friction (no details available, I have been sworn to secrecy by Blair Patrick)
-Offset ground 332 steel crank from an old school bus (really!). 3.76" stroke
-Crower billet rods with Honda (1.88") rod journals and bearings
-CP pistons with low tension rings, 4.25" bore, 10.5:1 compression
-Precision Oil Pumps high volume pump and drive, spacer with the stock spring
-Factory Ford windage tray
-Canton 8 quart deep sump pan and pickup
-Rollmaster timing chain set
-Street/Strip ported Edelbrock heads, 2.19/1.72 valves, 304/244 @ .700" lift (see my article from the August Car Craft, or go to the tech section of the Car Craft web site, for all the flow numbers)
-Comp Cams 308R Roller cam, 312/312 adv, 262/262@.050", .674 gross lift
-Comp roller lifters
-Erson rockers
-Smith Brothers pushrods
-Comp 943 springs, 240 on the seat, 600 over the nose
-Performer RPM intake
-Holley 4150 HP 1000 cfm carb
-Hedman headers, 2" primaries, 3.5" collectors, for Mustang chassis
-Edelbrock water pump
-Autolite AR3923 plugs
-MSD billet distributor, 35 degrees total advance at 3000 RPM
-MSD wires
-MSD Digital 6 box

I think this is a pretty solid combination, with one possible exception. I'm a little concerned that the spring pressure will pull the rocker shaft studs out of the Edelbrock heads. I'll be watching for that during the testing, and my backup plan is to install EZ locks on the engine if the studs do indeed pull out.

This engine really needs a single plane intake, but did just fine with the Performer RPM, IMO. Guesses??

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

591 HP. No idea on the torque and no clue how I came up with that number, but you did say guess..

I haven't pulled the studs out of my Dove heads with Heli-Coils and a 680# spring, so unless the the Ed's are different, I'd think you'd be fine.

605HP and 560 torque. Does the winner get a dyno session in the chicken coop?

No prizes will be awarded

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

You sure get to have a lot of fun!

Merry Christmas,

Bob

1966 7 Litre Convertible
1959 F-100 (under construction)
2005 GT40 (in my Dreams)

@6700rpm, 540# @ 5400. Mike

we need to get a live feed into that chicken coup, so we can see the action first-hand...

I'm going to guess the Dale's not far off, but think the RPM's going to hold it back some, so may be closer to 570hp with around 530 torque.

Should be interesting to see how the Ersons hold up at that lift with the spring combo as well...

611h.p. @7500 515 t.q.@5500

at 6400 rpm and 608 torque at 5400.... WAG


I think the one thing holding you back is the compression and I understand about the short block being built for the rules....


by the way.... thanks for some excitement Jay! It is good to liven up the forum once in a while. Merry Christmas.


68 Cougar XR7 street and strip car, 428 4-speed, 3560# of fun, new best 10.43@131.2 1.47 60 ft

I think the actual result may be around 645 with the Single plane, if the Dual was port matched then it would result in a 400 RPM drop in air flow choke over the single plane at 427 cubes.

That engine pulled hard if you are making us guess like this

If it was less than 600 I think you'd be a bit more subdued.

- Bill

Not sure about higher RPM. ( not sure about this either ! )

Engines are like garages,never big enough! Check out my distributor restoration site! http://428cobrajetcars.homestead.com

and climbing. Joe-JDC.

How about 590 hp at 7200 and 485 lbs @ 5500.

1967 GTA Fairlane convertible
1969 GT Torino original 390 4 speed

If the surf is flat I'll turn a wrench

n/m

Barry Rabotnick
Survivalmotorsports.com

606hp

This could be a new speed tv program "DYNO TIME"

Wow that would be fun!

I think the over 600hp guesses are a bit optimistic for a shorter stroke, mild roller engine. Sounds like one hell of a screamer though.

Doug

----------------------



69 Mach 1 R-code - 427MR 4-spd

68 F-250 4wd - 390HP 4-spd

58 2dr Del Rio Wagon - 390 4-spd

63 Mercury Comet 4dr 170ci 3-spd. (24mpg)

65 Galaxie 500 2dr hrdtp - 390 (automatic )

nm

All I can say is either a lot of you guys are REALLY optimistic, or I suck as an engine builder! The numbers are as follows:

564.1 HP @ 6700 RPM
501.8 ft-lbs @ 5300 RPM

The engine had a really nice, broad torque band of over 490 ft-lbs from 3300 to 5700 RPM. I was actually very pleased with the results, because I had targeted this combination for 575 HP with this intake. I wanted to have about this power, because the last motor will be my 492" stroker 427, and I know this engine will make around 650 HP. The stroker 390 made 500, so 575 is right between the two. Makes for a nice step in the manifold testing.

For you guys who thought this engine would do better, I would point to the fairly low 10.5:1 compression (DCR is less than 7.5:1), the street roller profile cam, the heads (which are just not that spectacular), and the dual plane intake. A very good dual plane, but still a dual plane.

I'm sure this engine will make 600+ HP as I start moving towards the single plane intakes and multiple carb setups. I think it might even make 625 with the tunnel wedge or the tunnel rams. I'm really looking forward to how it will do with the Webers.

I will post some results this coming weekend from the first several manifold tests. Stay tuned...

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

Jay,we are babysitting a 2.5-year old black lab, ie a puppy, he has to play ball NOW before bedtime, so I didn't get to post until after you did so the posts crossed in the mail.

How was the cam installed?

106 ICL, with the 110 LSA.

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

Cool, was about time

I take it will be 4 x 48 IDAs on a BT manifold - right?

What size venturi are you going to use?

The 37 mm std. is way too small, I have 40s in my mild 428.

Strong 427s will need more probably 42-43mm

I am really looking forward to that particular test.

Too bad the dyno does not rate driveability - thats where them Webers excel - if properly tuned.

Way to go Jay!

Mike (Germany)
68 GT500

48 IDAs on the angled Blue Thunder intake. Not sure the size yet on the venturis, but they look pretty big. Aren't they supposed to be marked on the top edge of the venturi so that you can see the numbers when you look down the carb? I have not found any numbers on mine...

The whole Weber thing is a little bit of a can of worms, because I'm afraid I'm going to have to get tuning parts for all the different dyno mules, in order to run them successfully. Maybe since the dyno testing is WOT only it won't be so bad. We will see...

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

tried to find a manifold for sidedraught Webers? I'm sure that such a thing exists, and my own experience tells me that if you only explore back-to-back with IDAs and DCOEs, the ease of tuning and packaging makes the DCOEs best by far. I've never had them on a dyno, and I'm not sure you'll find much difference there, but on the street it's major. The downdraught vs sidedraught dyno comparison would be super.
KS

Not sure one exists, Ken. You don't have photos of one, do you? Or know where I can look for one? I agree, that would be a pretty cool piece...

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

while not a Weber expert by any means, I have worked myself up to the point, that I have a decent understanding of what to change to get a given result.

If there is anything I can contribute - let me know - will be glad to help.

Like most people I found it difficult to get any venturis but the stock 37mm size.

And like most, I had my originals machined out to the size I wanted - 40mm in my case.

To check, just remove the top and pull out the venturi - a matter of minutes.

Same for changing emulsion tubes & jets - yes there are a few - but all within easy reach and no need to drain the fuel.

Mike (Germany)
68 GT500

Mike, I just took it apart tonight to get an idea of what I've got:

Chokes: 43mm
Main Jets: 160
Emulsion Tubes: F7
Air Corrector Jet: RCA 165
Idle Jet: 55F10

The only number that means anything to me is the choke diameter, which sounds like its at least in the ballpark, based on your experience. Do you have any comments on the other numbers?

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

Jay,
here is a very quick rundown of the workings of the Webers:

Idle & transfer & the cruising is done on the Idle circuit. So its important to have this right.

The Idle jet consts of the Idle jet and the idle holder wich has the idle air bleed.

The bigger the idle bleed the more it will lean out at the top end, before the mains kick in..

The idle screws schould be out no more than 1 turn.

The main circuit consists of the main jet, the emulsion tube and the air corrector.

The emulsion tube will define when the main circuit kicks in.

The air corrector is responsible for leaning out at the top end.

There is about a 4 to 1 relation in sizes for the main jet to air corrector.

If you want, I can send you the original tuning guide as a pdf. Send me your email.


Your setup could be on the lean side if you idle holder is the standard 120. I have 65 with a 110 Holder

Also check if the 3rd transfer hole has been drilled (behind the brass screw)

The main is richer than mine - probably ok because your bigger venturis will have less of a "signal"

F7 is the same emulsion tube I am running

Your air corrector is much bigger than mine (120) you may want to check for excessive leaning at the top

Mike (Germany)
68 GT500

Mike, I'd like to see that tuning guide you mentioned. My email is jaybnve(at)yahoo(dot)com.

Also wanted to ask about fuel pressure. Seems to me that I've read that Webers only like 3.5 psi; is this correct?

Thanks - Jay



Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

427 to be parametrically equivalent to the 42mm chokes Shelby American ran in the race 289 engines back in the day. This means you need a carb bigger than a 48IDA, unless one of those can be hogged out large enough (there is also a minimum amount larger than the choke throat size that the bore should be). If you run anything smaller, the results will be meaningless in terms of the real potential of the weber carbs. Don't make the mistake so many people do and then blame the carbs.

58 IDAs would be better, of course, but they are just not around. I think it would be hard to put a 51mm choke in a 48 IDA

I agree that on an IR manifold, the 48 IDAs will be small. This is the point of the dyno testing, of course; despite the wonderful visual appearance, I would expect the Weber intake to be down on power as compared to a good 2X4 Holley setup. But, I could be wrong about that, and that is the reason for the testing...

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

I know a guy with some, but he can be difficult to get responses from. I'll email him to see what happens.

MR ports are much smaller than the carb bore resulting in undesirable changes in port area. Aside from the fact that the 58mm weber setups were only made for the high riser back in the day, so that would be most representative from a historical perspective. Maybe even a set of Blue Thunder high risers that have the ports opened up large enough.

I checked out Gene Berg's web site a while back, but was unable to find the 58 IDA carbs. He has some 58mm sidedrafts, but not 58 IDAs, unless I missed them somehow.

Also, the comparison testing would go out the window if I changed heads. I need to run the carbs on the same basic engine to get a valid comparison. Will the 58 IDAs bolt onto the 48 IDA bolt pattern? I'm not sure the 58 IDAs will fit the Blue Thunder intake...

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

the original 58 downdraft carb mounting studs are further apart (on same bore spacing). So, the Berg carbs will fit on the BT intake, but at a minimum you would need to hog out the throat area just below the carb to match the carb bore. You will end up with a big port area change over a short distance.

Looks like the correct carb. I'm not sure what the left and right means though (?).

Looks like a 58 IDA to me! Ouch, $1200 each!

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

$540 each carb...
http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=8_239_2840

Sounds like EFI is the cheap way to go on a Weber intake!

n/m

The 8V Medium Riser intake with a pair of 660 center squirters is going to make more power than the Edelbrock Performer RPM and might even give the Tunnel Wedge a hard time. Talk to Blair, I think he has a ported one that makes 400 CFM per runner......

Also, I hope this is going to be a chance to compare Blue Thunder MR heads to Edelbrock?



1912 Model T Ford touring Salmon (ugh!)
1913 Model T Ford Touring original Black paint
1915 Model T Ford Roadster Black
1915 Model T Ford touring Black of course!
1967 Cougar GT 390 Cardinal Red / Black
1968 Cougar GTE 427 Augusta Green / Saddle
http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/15029/50071-2

Royce, I'm sure you are correct about the dual plane 2X4 intake. I'll bet that engine will pick up 20+ HP with that setup. At peak power I was pulling 1.4" of vacuum with the Performer RPM and the single 4150 HP carb. Anything over 0.6" or so is leaving power on the table.

I wish I had a set of the new Blue Thunder MR heads. About a year ago I talked to A.T. Francis at Blue Thunder about my intake testing, and he asked me about a head comparison also. We talked about this for a while, and settled on doing a head comparison where I used the same valves, did the same amount of porting work, and compared the Edelbrock heads to the BT MR heads on the dyno. He volunteered to send me a set of heads for this purpose, if I covered the expense of the valves, porting work, assembly, and testing.

I had a set of bare Edelbrock heads already, so I bought two sets of 2.19/1.72 valves for both pair of heads, then took one set with the Edelbrock heads into my shop and had them street/strip ported. These are the heads that are on the 427 I'm currently testing. Then I waited for the Blue Thunder heads. Unfortunately, I am still waiting. I've called BT a couple of times on this, but have had to leave a message, and have received no response. Maybe he forgot, or changed his mind, or something...

In any case, at some point I'll probably buy a set and run the head comparison test. But I have lots of Edelbrock heads here, so for now all my testing will be using the Edelbrock heads.

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

Seems like the combustion chamber design and relocated exhaust ports would be worth a few horsepower over a comparable set of Edelbrock heads. On the other hand the engine seems to be well on its way to making gobs of power with the much less expensive Edelbrock heads.

Nice work once again Jay!!!!!



1912 Model T Ford touring Salmon (ugh!)
1913 Model T Ford Touring original Black paint
1915 Model T Ford Roadster Black
1915 Model T Ford touring Black of course!
1967 Cougar GT 390 Cardinal Red / Black
1968 Cougar GTE 427 Augusta Green / Saddle
http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/15029/50071-2

Jay, I have a set of the MR BT heads that have only had the intake side cartridge rolled. I haven't started on the exhausts, or combustion chambers. You can use them if you want, but they need all the work, and they have 11/32 guides. Joe-JDC.

I'd rather have my own set though, just in case something bad happens on the dyno and the heads get banged up. Thanks for the offer anyway, Joe!

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

Thanks for the warmth, every bit is appreciated at this time. The short stroke threw my guesses off a bit. I was expecting about 1.45-1.5 HP/CI, and torque in the 1.35 Lbft/CI. I know Blair built a minimum friction shortblock, and I figured the cam and rpm's would get you there. The low lift flow of your heads must not be quite where it needs to be to get .257 HP/CFM. Would be of interest to average the airflow at .050 increments of lift, and then plot your Hp/cfm. Great to have you keeping our interest in the forum. My offer to tweak/port/balance the flow on any of your manifolds remains. Joe-JDC.

J.C. and I are anxiously waiting for the results of the 6x2 Manifold with the early Holley carbs




"I seen a lot of change in my life and I been against it all!"

RB

And that is my official prediction LOL! We need to get the carbs rebuilt before we run that one, and then work out the linkage (OMFG, the linkage!). But it will be interesting no matter how it turns out. Perhaps you will appear for the big 6X2 dyno test?? I'll be running all the single four intakes first, so it will probably be first or second weekend in January...

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

Maybe, But a turd with plenty of Wow factor... fuel lines, bellcranks and linkage rods moving in every direction. It will be your tribute to rat rodding.

I consider that an official invitation... Excuse me I have to go stock up on Grain Belt for my admission fee. Or should I bring shrimp cocktails. LOL


RB

Joel won't be there, so you can skip the shrimp cocktail Royce! That setup will indeed be very rat roddish, but I don't have strong confidence in the power production. I will go out on a limb and say only 520 HP for that setup. With luck I will be proven wrong.

I will let you know when I'm getting close to running that one...

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

I'm curious (while looking at my dyno sheets), what was the max intake cfm and bsfc numbers on your best pull?

*****************************************

Joel

1970 Torino Cobra 429SCJ/4sp 4.30 Locker

472ci - 480HP\518LB-FT installed

*****************************************

.

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

This is what the "G" computed with the cam at 4 advance, for 106i / 114e LCA's. Installing it straight up added about 5hp.

G is mighty impressive as your MOE must be +/- 3 to 4%.

Cool.....

so the bearing surface speed was lower? i guess friction would be less with a smaller one but wouldn't that hurt longevity?

At the same RPM as a smaller diameter.
Surface speed in feet/min = diameter * RPM/3.82
A 3.0 journal at 5000 rpm = 3926 SFM
A 2.5 journal at 5000 RPM = 3272 SFM

Significant difference

I'm hanging onto this one for a while. Maybe there's a Cobra replica in my future.

The POS is one of the intakes that I will be testing in the next few days...

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

comments above, I just discovered that DCOE sidedraught carbs are available as 55s. That's significantly larger than the 48s. Google Redline carbs for some info. They have a 'phone number listed there.
KS

It seams like an aweful big carb for the rest of the engine combo.

I would think and be very curious what it would do with a Holley 750 or 850 HP.

Morgan

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