Things didn't exactly go according to plan today, but I made some progress on tuning this engine. Here are some of the specifications:

Bore: 4.500" (on 4.700" bore spacing)
Stroke: 4.600"
Compression: 13:1 static
Cams: single pattern Comp, 298@ .050", .677" gross valve lift
Intake: custom EFI sheet metal intake, two 90mm throttle bodies
Exhaust: 2.25" primaries, 36" long, 4" collectors

Here's a photo of the engine on the dyno:



After the warm-up runs yesterday, and having a problem with one adjuster on the T&D rockers, I considered just swapping all the adjusters out and replacing them. However, I decided to proceed with the T&D adjusters in 15 spots, because I wanted to give them a fair shake. So, at noon today I started and warmed up the engine, and then performed a couple of very conservative dyno pulls, from 3000 to 5000 RPM, just to get some ballpark A/F numbers so I could make some preliminary adjustments to the EFI fuel map. Coming down from the second pull, though, I heard the telltale rapping of some valvetrain noise. Pulled the left side valve cover and saw this:



Sure enough, another broken adjuster. This one had backed itself out so that the lash on the #2 intake was really large, causing the obvious valvetrain noise.

At this point I'd had enough, and pulled all the rockers off the engine, and replaced all the remaining adjusters with some extra Dove adjusters that I had here. This process burned a good two hours of my afternoon, leaving me less time than I wanted to run the engine. But finally by 3:00 or so I was ready to run again.

I fired the engine and warmed it up, and again noted that it did not want to idle. I had also noticed this yesterday, and wasn't sure about the cause, but now that I felt I had the valvetrain problems under control, I looked into it a little further. I'm not an EFI expert, and I don't know if the EFI system could be contributing to this problem, but one thing for sure was the timing was jumping all over the place. When I put a timing light on the engine at 1500 RPM, it was supposed to be timed at 20 degrees BTDC, according to the EFI system spark map. What I observed was very erratic timing, constantly jumping around from 15 to 22 degrees. After checking a couple of things on the computer, I finally pulled the distributor cap and wiggled the rotor. It moved quite bit, probably accounting for this variation in timing. The distributor is a FAST unit that I modified, by cutting it off and machining a hex on the end of the shaft. It fits into a Hilborn injector pump drive that is mounted on the fuel pump gear in the SOHC, and comes through the front cover.

It was clear that the fit of the hex into the pump drive was not very tight, and this was causing the erratic timing I observed with the light. I decided to let that go for now, hoping that on the acceleration of a dyno pull the timing would stay stable. I began to make more pulls and work my way up the RPM scale, but by the time I got to 6000 RPM, it was clear that the erratic timing was causing problems all the way up the curve. The pulls were not all that repeatable, and even though my total advance was limited to 29 degrees, I actually got a better power run when I changed the spark map to make it 27 degrees maximum. Based on my other SOHC requiring 30-32 degrees for peak power, I'm pretty sure that the erratic timing is affecting the operation of the engine.

So, I need to spend a day solving this distributor fit problem in order to continue tuning this engine. But the engine definitely shows some promise, with 700+ ft-lbs of torque from 4800 to 5500 RPM, and a peak of 715 ft-lbs at 5200. Peak HP I observed was 790 at only 6000 RPM, and still on a pretty steep part of the HP curve.

With luck by the end of this week I'll have the timing and tuning issues resolved, and can post some dyno plots.

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

your rocker issues go away and soon! Thanks for the preliminary results as they are already most impressive.

That engine is going to pump out some power for ya (we all hope). That's one BIG FE you built Jay! I hope you have better luck here soon. I know you need it!

"The Poor Mans 427"
http://www.fordification.com/poormans427.htm

1973-1979 Ford Truck Enterprise Link:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/399900



Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP

At least nothing scattered. 790hp is nothing to sneeze at for a small cam engine having ignition woes.
That vacuum pump is HUGE... looks like it takes the missing 210hp just to drive it.

Unfortunately the engine isn't all that well sealed, and even with that big pump I'm only pulling about 2.5 inches of vacuum during the pull. I'm sure it helps, but I think there's another 20HP when I get the crankcase sealed up and I can get 12-15 inches of vacuum like I had planned.

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

Please pass along the things you do to get the crankcase to seal. I had the same problem with pulling vacuum in the crankcase...nobody makes the trick crankshaft seals to prevent leaks. What else do you have to do so a FE will pull vacuum?

66 Fairlane GT Silver Blue "BRUTE" Genesis 496/C4
66 Fairlane GT Nightmist Blue 428/TKO600
66 F250 Camper Special Rangoon Red 428/4-speed
2000 Lincoln LS Sport 5-speed

You can install the front timing cover seal backwards. This will allow the engine to leak at this spot when running without the vacuum pump, but with crankcase vacuum the seal will work. I imagine that it may work with the rear main as well, but I have never tried it.

Even with the front cover seal installed the conventional way, I was able to get up to 15 inches of vacuum with a GZ Motorsports pump on my 511" wedge FE. The dipstick tube was my biggest problem; once I got that sealed, pulling the vacuum was no trouble.

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

be necessary or effective. See below link:

http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/vacuum-pumps.html

There is a bit of a diffrence in crank seals also compare and use the best looking one.Also a speedy sleave on the alum crank spacer helped on my 505 seal much better .

69 R code Mustang coupe 68 1/2 R code Mustang coupe 70 ram air Drag Pack Cougar 67 505 F.A.S.T legal Fairlane

I'll take take that kind of power anytime LOL! Don't care about no stinkin' rod ratio

Nice run out of the gate. Sorry those adjusters are NFG. They looked so nice!

I'm sure you'll be scratching 900 HP in no time.

- Bill

Seeing that adjuster snapped cleanly and backed out does get me curious. I am sure they are made with J-form rolled threads, but they sure behave like cut threads. I suspect some stress relief is required in the adjuster design, and this would entail counterboring the rocker thread a bit, and maybe even counterboring the locknut a bit, enabling at least a half dozen threads to participate in the stretch which keeps these adjusters clamped in place, even after settling. As it is, there may only be a single thread on the adjuster providing stretch: The result would be a loosening of the nut as the fresh mechanicals settled, which may generate local fatigue in the thread and the clean snapping you see.

Alternately, if all is not perfectly perpendicular, then the single thread providing the stretch may be torqued sideways, locallizing the load to one point of the thread. I doubt it is out of square, but it is worth looking at the nut to be sure it seats squarely when tightened.

It'll be interesting to see how this shakes out.

Thanks for the update.

Shoe.

I plan on talking with Larry about the adjuster issue. I wonder if it would be best to install them and run for a little while and then go back and double check them. If the nut does back of it could cause the adjuster to break. It could also be a heat treat problem. Keith

Jay I would like for you to talk with Larry about the adjusters. He will work with us to get them right and solve any problems. What exactly are they doing when you say they are breaking? Are they backing off and then breaking or just loosing up? Do you think a dab of loc-tite would help keep the nut tight. This is the same adjuster but with out the Elephant foot that we have on all of the T&D rockers and they give us no problem. Don't give up on the adjusters untill we talk with Larry about any ideals he may have. Your camshaft is on the extreme side when it comes to duration @ .050 for sure. Do you think you need that much duration with a head that flows that well? I will let Larry know about the adjuster issue that you had and have him give you a call if that is ok.

Thanks, Keith Craft

A couple years ago i had the same problem with adjusters on a new set of factory style adjustable arms, if i remeber right they had a batch that i think they told me wre not hardened correctly. i recieved a new set of adjusters and the coloring on them was different. the ones that broke look to be the same color as the ones on Jays engine.

Bill Holm
www.billscustomauto.net
72 F100 410 cu in
67 Fastback to be determinned (wifes car)

Keith, I'm certain that the adjusters are not loosening before they are breaking. If you go back to my post from Saturday night, I was in the process of lashing the valves, and had not run the engine, when the first adjuster popped and broke. That one for sure had no chance to loosen up. I think you are correct that this may be a heat treat issue. I'd be happy to speak with Larry at T&D if you'd like.

It may also be that I can just tighten the adjusters a little less to put less stress on them, and they might be OK. I've been tightening them like a normal FE wedge adjuster, but maybe less torque on the nut is called for. FYI I checked the torque on some of the nuts after the first adjuster broke, and it was 13-14 ft-lbs. This much torque may not be required to keep the adjusters tight.

Regarding the cam, the long duration at .050" can be a little deceiving on an SOHC, due to the rocker ratio. For example, with a standard wedge FE you have a 1.76:1 rocker ratio, so at .050" lobe lift the gross valve lift is .088". On a cammer the rocker ratio is more like 1.3:1, so at .050" lobe lift the gross valve lift is only .065". In order to really compare the SOHC profiles at the valve with a wedge FE cam, you have to look at the duration at .068" lobe lift for the SOHC. If you do that, my 298 @ .050" SOHC cam looks more like a 278 @ .050" wedge cam.

This particular issue was pretty confusing to me at first, and in order to fully understand it I went out and bought one of those Cam Analyzer stands made by Performance Trends. Now, rather than looking at the spec card numbers, I run both the wedge cams and the SOHC cams on my Cam Analyzer stand, and just compare the graphs of the cam profiles at the valve with that program. Using this approach the cams in this SOHC look pretty much the same as the cams I've used in some of my 700-750 HP wedge engines. Not that this is the ideal cam for this engine; it may not be. In fact, I have a 290 @ .050 set of cams waiting in the wings to try. But there is a fairly limited selection of cams available. I think Comp only has four lobe profiles. If you start getting into these engines a little more, you might want to talk to Comp about making a few more profiles available.

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

demonstrate pushing the envelope often means going where no man has gone before. Your persistance is amazing.

We have more latitude than you may think on cam profiles.

Call....

Barry Rabotnick
Survivalmotorsports.com

was hoping those would have been rock solid. im hoping you exceed the 900hp mark. course i think a bigger bump stick would help take advantage of that monster motor. would be hard to believe that a mill like that wouldnt be capable of 1000+hp easy.

cam next to the rocker ??? Keep up the good work............RW

The cams came with that discoloration; I think it may be the remnants of the heat treat process on the lobes, but I'm not sure. In any case, though, they have always looked like that.

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

Are you triggering off the distributor or a crank trigger? If a crank trigger, then the only potential source for the spark scatter would seem to be RFI on the pickup. I had a similar problem on an engine and never did find the source...a roller lifter failed and ended the season. Good luck chasing that down.

66 Fairlane GT Silver Blue "BRUTE" Genesis 496/C4
66 Fairlane GT Nightmist Blue 428/TKO600
66 F250 Camper Special Rangoon Red 428/4-speed
2000 Lincoln LS Sport 5-speed

I'm not using a crank trigger; the distributor is a FAST unit that has both the crank and cam sensor installed in the distributor itself. So, the spark scatter is coming from the slop in the distributor.

Late last night I was able to take some .002" brass shimstock and shim between the hex on the distributor shaft, and the hex receptacle in the engine. The distributor is now installed nice and tight, and there is no more slop in the shaft. Looking forward to running the engine tonight after work...

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

I think there could be several causes for the ignition instability by mounting the distributor where it is. If you switch to a crank triggering set up it could eliminate the erratic timing issues. Maybe a belt driven distributor run from the crankshaft along with the crank trigger would be even better. JMO from using this set up with a Motec on a Pro 5.0 car. Our timing was always rock steady.

Dave Walters
427 Galaxie Registry
Website
http://home.ptd.net/~pwalters

Go crank trigger for max stability!

************************************

1967 FE 390GT engine: 416 CID 233/238* @ 0.050 Solid Lifter w/ 4 spd TL.
1968 GT/CS Mustang. 289/c4
1995 Mercedes e320 I6 DOHC, 216 HP wagon.
2003 Tundra SR5, 4.7 DOHC, 4x4.
Another Galaxie (one day.)

Oh and a Bicycle - daily driver to save gas for the 'F'un 'E'xcursions.

The FAST distributor contains both the crank and cam sensors; you just drop it in, hook up the wires to the FAST harness, and go. If I went with a crank trigger, I would have to:

A - Adapt one from a kit for a 429/460
B - Figure out a way to get a cam sync signal, probably use a standard FE electronic distributor pickup and cut off all but one reluctors.
C - Get those two signals to play together with the FAST electronics. The cam sync signal has to lead the #1 crank firing signal by exactly 50 degrees, so this would entail some precision adjustments.

All of this is handled with the FAST distributor. Of course, if you went with the crank trigger, you would STILL have to modify the distributor to mount it in front of the engine, since with the sheet metal intake there is no room to put in a normal distributor.

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

I made my own crank trigger using a Chevy wheel modified to fit and cutting down my tach drive Mallory to put the cap right down on the base.
It's an amazing difference, i'd always had lots of ignition issues and the distributor moving all over. There's no need for a timing light since it can't move and I never change it. It's easy to phase the distributor my eyeing it.
Now the thing has 38 degrees all the time, still cranks and fires easy with no retard (other than the driver!)

I don't know a lot about the SOHC 427s so I'm assuming that the FAST distributor is being run from an adapter off of the timing chain, correct? If this is the case I'm sure it would have been fine for its original purpose of driving the mechanical fuel injection pump but, I would think that there would be too much slop for it to provide accurate movement of the distributor. If you want to keep that distributor instead up running a crank trigger then I would reconfigure it to run off the crank with a belt instead. Again...JMO.

Dave Walters
427 Galaxie Registry
Website
http://home.ptd.net/~pwalters

I've run some pretty extensive experiments in the past on the cam timing variations on these engines, and haven't found it to be too serious, at least up to 7000 RPM. The slop I was talking about in the original post is in the fit of the distributor to the pump drive hex, not in the chain. This was mostly my fault, because I machined the hex on the end of the distributor too small. Last night I was able to correct that problem with a shim. So, we'll see what it looks like tonight when I run the engine again. If the timing is still jumping around a bunch, either a crank trigger or a belt drive distributor might be the only option.

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

I remember in the old days, the old-time Sock guys spent a lot of effort dealing with the chain whip, had to advance one cam over the other to account for the stretch at high RPM, cam timing would change with RPM level, if I remember right the best-case "magic number" was 8 degrees. JMHO, but I would try to avoid triggering my ignition from that point at all costs, the stock setup was driven ahead of the cam chains- the old Hilborn pumps wouldn't care if the timing was wandering around, just that they got spun at the right speed

is based on an ATI damper, which comes from ATI with BBC bolt holes. My Mallory wheel is also BBC and simply bolts on. We had to construct a simple bracket to hold the pick-up in the right position. It took less than an hour, and was made from a small piece from the scrap pile. March pulleys are mix-n-match and work just fine!
KS

could be that it appears that your ignition pickup wire coming from your distributor is running right along the secondary ignition wires, which could be inducing current into the pickup wire. I would also recommend the crank trigger.

Steve Roehrs

Or whose? Nice work Jay!



1912 Model T Ford touring Salmon (ugh!)
1913 Model T Ford Touring original Black paint
1915 Model T Ford Roadster Black
1915 Model T Ford touring Black of course!
1967 Cougar GT 390 Cardinal Red / Black
1968 Cougar GTE 427 Augusta Green / Saddle
http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/15029/50071-2

They are the ones that I had all the problems with, leaks and non-concentric cam bearing bores. Got 'em working now, though...

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

just a thought here since you are already running EFI and whatnot why not run EDIS fords system of coil packs instead of a distributor just wondering if there is any reason seems like it would just be one less thing to have go wrong.

There would be some advantages to that approach, that's for sure. But for now I think I'll run what I've got. Maybe in the spring...

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

the castings
Is it worth it, possible after the fact?
I know Edelbrock claims their heads are treated.

http://www.engineersedge.com/aluminum_tempers.htm

Very impressive looking set up Jay!!! About the block, just wondering is it some sort of special order block because of that bore spacing and who made it (Shelby?)? If I recall right, normal FE bore spacing is 4.63". Thanks !!

I bought it without the sleeves, and rough bored to 4.400". Then my machinist bored it to 4.680" on 4.700" centers. Finally I got custom sleeves, 4.680" on the outside, for a 4.500" finished bore size. Wasn't easy...

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

Another way would have been to bore it on the original 4.63" centers and mill flats on the sides of the sleeves and weld them together for stability.

I've heard of iron 4.38" bore center blocks going to 4.25" and I think it was the late great Dyno Don that had an aluminum Cleveland bored to 4.25".

Hi Jay, I was wondering how much valve spring pressure are you running?
Rob

.

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

Hi Jay, do you think there is any possibility that you may be running excessive spring pressure? I am not sure way you need that
much pressure with in a SOHC.
Rob

On my other SOHC with the same cams, the valves floated at 6800 when I had 180 on the seat and 500 over the nose. The stiffer springs solved the problem, and let the engine rev to 7500.

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

I dont know if this helps or not, but here goes....

Are you sure that the erratic timing is not a misfire? I dont what type of ign box you are using with your Fast, but I do know that many of the digital boxes will just not work correctly (without a random misfire) using a distributor pickup, they will only have a clean signal with a crank trigger pickup. A misfire would also explain your breakage problem. I run the FAST and BIG STUFF 3 on several of our blower and turbo outlaw cars, and while I am no expert, I have had my share of problems and broken parts----trust me, if it cant be broken, I have already torn up a dozen of them.

Jay, do you use any air filters for your dyno runs? Do you use any kind of beveled/radiused inlet for your throttle bodies? You may have a simple problem with air turbulence if you are not using any type of duct/filter/radiused inlet. With twins, you need to separate the distance so as to not cause airflow starvation problems. Just an observance. Joe-JDC.