Well, after 8 years of hard work and a absurd amount of money, we have finally finshed our Billet Aluminum FE head. The programming is done and proven, the first heads have guides and seats, and a head had been sent to T&D to have rockers designed. Hopefully this will only take a few more weeks. A finished head will be at the PRI show this month. The next step for us is header flanges, intake flanges and a valley pan. These heads will require a sheet metal intake (for right now), custom headers, pistons, etc. They will accept stock valve covers (the bolt pattern is same as stock, we just dont know yet if the rockers will clear on a stock valve cover or not yet). We took great pains to digitize the top of the exhaust port to keep the stock "pentroof" look, along with a vertical exhaust bolt pattern. We are working out the pricing now, and should be ready to start selling them in the next few months. The price should be comparable to a billet SBF or SBC head, however because the intake plate is machined with the head (the part the pushrods go thru), the price will be accordingly higher.































Now for the good part. These are a radical departure from ANYTHING that a FE has had bolted on it before. They are a Canted valve head. The intake flows in the area of 470 CFM! To give you an idea of what kind of power they will make, 470 cfm SBF heads on a NA 430" motor make about 1100 hp. The same heads on a twin turbo 430" motor make upwards of 2800 hp. They fit 4.250 Bore and larger. The plug locations have been moved to a better spot, but they still keep stock looking angles, and the cylinders are paired like stock, it is not symmetrical. We had intended on running these in the Pro Nostalgia class in NSCA, but since they closed the doors last year, we will be running them in a Turbo charged version in either Auto pro mod or Outlaw 10.5.































I will post some pictures as soon as I can, but if you are planning to go to the PRI show, you will be able to see them in person. As soon as I am 100% sure on which booth they will be in, I will post it. If you have any questions, you can e-mail me. Brian_clayton2000@yahoo.com











I guess we will be finding out just how much power a Shelby block can stand! We had intended on having a billet block too, but after 2 deposits (and having to sue to get part of one of them back), we are out of time....maybe this will get Kirkhams going...hint...hint...























These heads are no pipe dream, they are done and ready for production. We will have a motor built as soon as the rockers are finished. While it will be a turbo charged engine, we just need to prove the valve train is stable, no hot spots in the water jackets, etc.

n/m

May have to rethink my Boss 557 plan




---------------------------------
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, TKO-600 5 speed, 3.70 9 inch
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 397 cid FE, headers, Street Dominator, 280H, 5 lug Dana 60, 4 speed

Now only if I had some deep pockets LOL. All kidding aside but that's really cool to hear that!

"The Poor Mans 427"

http://www.fordification.com/poormans427.htm






Wes Adams FORD428CJ

Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff

79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel

64 Falcon X-Ram 428

55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428

2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277

2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max

2001 Polaris 600 Edge X

2001 Polaris 500 SP

I look forward to learning more about them.

Shoe.

I think I spoke with you last year about the head.
This year I will be at booth 774, with some pretty cool FE stuff to show off. Nothing like your's though....

I'll have one of Bill's Cammer heads, a couple blocks, a CNC'd BT high riser,

...and an original and unique aluminum tunnel port - just for grins - and to see if anybody can shed some light on it's history.

Barry Rabotnick
Survivalmotorsports.com

We may have spoke. This project has had so many ups and downs over the years.....every year we thought we would be done, just to be put off again. The guy building our head finally put it like to me. " I have to clear over 100,000 dollars a month in labor to break even. As you can see, I cant just stop what I am doing and work on just your project." He wasnt mean about it, and since he is one of the top cylinder head men in the country....We waited...and waited...and waited. Now it looks like the waiting is paying off. I finally got to put my hands on a actual machined head. Production could actually start today on the head, it is finished. We just want to run one pair on our engine first, to make sure there are no valvetrain or clearance issues. Pistons are no big deal either, the new cnc process can churn a set out in a week or two, at prices comparable to a regular forging. Which is a good thing, I could see spending another 30 grand on a piston forging!

c

N/M

Can't wait to see some pics! I am somewhat amazed that you can build a splayed valve head and have the stock valve covers fit...

Jay Brown
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
1969 R code Mach 1, 490" supercharged FE, 9.35 @ 151.20, 2007 Drag Week Runner Up, Power Adder Big Block
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)
1964 Ford Galaxie 500, 510" SOHC

Well, the head has a stock VC bolt pattern (the cylinder head guy hates us for that too). The valve cover rail has been cheated over and slightly re angled to get it to cover up the valve springs. While I dont know if a regular "Thunderbird" cover will clear the rockers, I think the tall finned aluminum or pentroof will (Maybe some minor clearancing). Its just hard to say until we put the first one together. I know they will clear with no rockers, since that is how we planned to pass teck in pro nostalgia if the rockers wouldnt clear.....figured we would roll through tech with some beat up, paint peeling "Thunderbird" covers off of a 352 or something. If we hadnt insisted on a stock VC pattern, no symmetrical ports, stock looking plug location (it is moved on these heads) the head could have been much more radical. Always a compromise. They can be made to flow more, we just had them set up for a 4.250 bore and N/A. We are building a turbo version first, but we have some extra genesis iron blocks, and may do a radical N/A motor just see see what we can get out of 427ci and 2 4150's.

owned a Chrysler Plymouth Dealership telling me their Mopar Taxi's would have problems with heads cracking from hot spots

The company that is doing these heads have already done SBF and SBC billet heads with water, and they are very successful.

Manifold concept look anything like this?

Yes, thats the idea. We havnt done a manifold yet, but the port plates are done like that, and the mainfold will be separate from the port plate. Our first one will be a EFI tunneram, so it will be a flat top with a Throttle body out the back of the intake. A good bit lower than that one of yours, since we want to run a flat hood.

This manifold was developed for a future S/S car with a bubble hood and was designed to take advantage of all the available clearance. With a splayed/canted valve arrangement how does quench area compare to the conventional design?

Sorry, you lost me. Quench as in chamber quench area?

Yes. Just trying to visualize how to get your valve arrangement without sacrificing quench area.

Good question. And a much better question to ask my cylinder head guy. What he told me, is that they took their best NHRA pro stock stuff, and shrunk it down to fit inside a 4.250 bore (instead or 4.625 or so). The finish chanber ends up around 48 or 50 cc's. The chamber looks a lot like the canted port/canted valve sc1's. In fact, the head looks like a skinny pro stock head.

Hey, it's great that some guys want to keep pushing the envelope and all. But is it too much to ask for someone to make a 60cc chamber head that flows 300-310 out of the box that doesn't need trick accessories? You know, something we can slap on a flat top piston 390 and go racing? A basic design that would outsell a billet or cammer head by about a thousand to one?

Virtually every other engine type I can think of had support for the grassroots contingent before they went hog wild on exotic toys. What happened to the FE people?

Is it any wonder that so many people shift to the 460 to go big block racing on the cheap?

that you are hanging around with an exotic crowd

(Nice to see your posts more frequently again).

Gary B

Thanks, but may not be for long. Did you catch my reply to your Manhood post in the drum brake thread? I was kinda late on that one. Thought you might be amused.

Something simple probably wont be done simply because the stock FE design is crap to start with. Ports too low. Plug at way the wrong angle. Combustion chamber is a joke. Valves are located wrong in relation to cylinder. Trust me, we spent close to 30,000 modifying Edelbrock and Dove heads, and any thing we came up with was a compromise. We simply hit a brick wall N/A 750-800 hp. Edelbrock makes a great head, and I guess that the blue thunder heads are good too. I think garrett offers a cnc blue thunder head, and thats about the best in between you are probably going to find. Every motor, once you get past stock dimensions requires custom parts, pistons, rockers, headers, manifold, etc. Simple is what is out there now. It uses stock type manifolds (intake and exhaust), rockers, etc. People go to 429/460 style engines because of the availablity of heads. You cant make any more power with a 429/460 than you can with FE style engines, given the SAME available parts. A E460 head is a far cry from anything that is available (until now) for a FE. And cost? A professionaly done, CNC'd, big power "e" head will cost you well over 10 grand, along with custom everything. Not to mention you just cant built 814 cubic inches with a FE. It just wont fit.

I am thinking of scrapping all of my Ford stuff and getting a Chevy. A World 4.155 block, with some World Sr heads. I could put that together for the cost of an FE valve job.

Man, have I been a fuck up.

Crazy. Besides, what else would we be doing? You cant take it with you!

I don't know why, its a sickness

The man I work for (the one footing the bill for this project), loves these engines. He grew up during the super stock wars of the 60's and except for our outlaw stuff (SB ford) has always raced FE engines. Its crazy in a way, but hey, someone had to do it....why not us?

Just ragging on you guys. Back in the '70s I fooled with Clevelands alot. You have to love that dry intake for servicing the valvetrain. I always wished the FE could have that, the pulling half the engine down to service a fragging lifter puts you on the trailer, where on the "C", hell it was job you could do on a warm 15 minute call to the lanes. A 500 ci Genesis block with a FE/Yates Cup head with a dry intake. That would be cool.

Somebody made a intake like that, it used a cleveland intake I think....Garrett has one, and has a picture of it on his website.
http://www.garrettmachine.com

Those are still pretty desirable too. I don't see how the port angles could really work right. I looking forward to more on yours info after PRI. I'll have to call Danny down in Sikeston and tell him a Ford is about to take out his buddy Herb McCandless. Dyno Don used to give them hell. I've been trying to get him back to racin'.

Heh-heh....this was going to be our answer to Lamar Walden's 409 heads, but in the end, the FE's ruled Pro Nostalgia.

As far as the intake, it would be easy to get some aluminum and weld up a valley pan, cut some intake ports and bolt up a cleveland intake. Might take a little milling here or there....the distrubutor hole would even be easy because it is not at a angle. It could be done without any exotic machine work. Reminds me of a intake we sold on ebay a few months ago. Someone (not me) cut the valley off of a Mag SOHC intake, and cobbled up a sheet metal (steel tubing, bondo, epoxy) intake spider for it. It looked like a monstrosity, but it was probably state of the art in 1967. It was heartbreaking to look at....

See, there's something you can actually sell in numbers. Take a look at the tunnel rams and funnel webs and other goodies in the Cleve camp. I drooleth upon my bib.

F@#k'n NUTTY!!!! LOL I guess, that's why I do......CRAZY about the old FE that just doesn't stop dead in its tracks. Isn't that the truth! I thought that about 7 years ago but now look what has come out of the iron shed LOL. What a bunch of lose nuts......Including me!!!

"The Poor Mans 427"
http://www.fordification.com/poormans427.htm

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Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP

Sour grapes I guess, but I won't ever be in that class.

I ain't ("ain't" being a word us exotic FE guys use) buying your explanation. I'm not asking for a complete redesign of the head. Ford made a small chamber head back in the early days that allowed for decent compression with 352 and 390 displacements. That can be done again with at least some modernization of shape. Keep the spark plug where it is.

To make an Edelbrock head worth its cost, you need to pay someone to port it or do it yourself. Why can't one be released that supports 600 horsepower in as cast form, that takes a normal valvetrain? Everybody else has this. Even Cleveland stuff has passed us by, and now TFS is coming out with a new C head that flows out of the box.

"People go to 429/460 style engines because of the availablity of heads." Isn't that what I'm saying? You can buy aftermarket non-exotic heads that flow 320 to 400 as cast all day long for the 385 engines. Why not us?

What the 460 crowd does not have is bazillions of engines floating around that are under 400 cubes that are "natural" powerplants for the classic (and lighter) 60's cars we all dig. Cheap, fun motors.

Again, I think that what you are doing is nifty and all, but I doubt you are going to sell very many billets. As you yourself have pointed out, the A460 and C460 headed (and soon to be Boss) guys have the big power market pretty well sewn up for the Ford camp. I don't think the billets will ever be legal for any classes, so your market is the Big Bux Dudes.

Once again, I think that a capable manufacturer has missed the boat to turn a profit. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

They make a F.E. Sm. Bore Med. Riser Quinch Cyl. Head P/N #CHFE-SB-MR

http://www.bluethunderauto.com/id17.html

"The Poor Mans 427"
http://www.fordification.com/poormans427.htm

1973-1979 Ford Truck Enterprise Link:
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Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP

http://www.survivalmotorsports.com/BlueThunder.html

"The Poor Mans 427"
http://www.fordification.com/poormans427.htm

1973-1979 Ford Truck Enterprise Link:
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Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP

Are they under a thou bare?

I could be very wrong on that but I 95% sure they do.

"The Poor Mans 427"
http://www.fordification.com/poormans427.htm

1973-1979 Ford Truck Enterprise Link:
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Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP

they take T&D's, which is why I came back with that question in a lightning-like manner

Although I'd take my dream head in aluminum, ideally it would be iron and cheap.

The peanut head are kind of spendy for a almost 50 year old head. That's the said thing! I feel your pain.....

"The Poor Mans 427"
http://www.fordification.com/poormans427.htm

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Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP

They are iron and cheap

Nothing in FE land is cheap.....same with TP's. Don't get me wrong but the new stuff is pretty cool. Whats another 1,000 or 2 LOL. I know, look who's talking.....ME LOL

"The Poor Mans 427"
http://www.fordification.com/poormans427.htm

1973-1979 Ford Truck Enterprise Link:
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Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP

How many you want? I think we have 10 pair or so left in various states of repair. A couple of intakes....selling out.....already sold a bunch of stuff on ebay. Need 70 or 80 60's ford parts cars? I got em....mostly Galaxies...

Is this you????

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=83491093

I had to Google it...

"The Poor Mans 427"
http://www.fordification.com/poormans427.htm

1973-1979 Ford Truck Enterprise Link:
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Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP

I try to get out and meet as many FE'rs as I can. We are about the same age but I never got to play with BIG boys toys like that. Cool to see and you got to admire the craftsmanship that go in them. I look very forward to seeing your heads and wish you the best of luck! Trust me its a rough crowed out there LOL....

"The Poor Mans 427"
http://www.fordification.com/poormans427.htm

1973-1979 Ford Truck Enterprise Link:
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Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP

We try to have some fun. All of those car in pictures, I built. As far as the FE heads go, we didnt do it to make a profit, if you know what I mean. We actually started doing to "Bend" the rules in a particular class. In other words, we planned to make 1100 hp, when all the other cars were only making 800-850. It was legal, sort of. Well, the rules didnt say we couldnt do it. Thats why these heads ended up with a stock valve cover bolt pattern and a original externat appearance. Trust me when I say that my cylinder head guy has gone above and beyond the call of duty on this one. Jon Kaase even thought they were "cool".

I'm sure they will meet the expectation then. Jon is a pretty cool guy himself. I haven't been to the 385 forum for some time. I should look to see what he has been working on!

"The Poor Mans 427"
http://www.fordification.com/poormans427.htm

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Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP

He said he would like to, but the 800" IHRA stuff was his bread and butter. He did tell me was was piddling around with a fe head....he had moved the valves closer to the cylinder centerline, but it was another project shelved.

I understand. I kind of heard that he was playing with FE heads and that was about it. Too bad.

"The Poor Mans 427"
http://www.fordification.com/poormans427.htm

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Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP

I sent heads all over the country, talked to every cylinder head in america, before I found the one I have now. And let me tell you, he is good. If I didnt think he would mind, I would tell you some of his customers names, and trust me, you would know them all. Its funny, he told us one time that we were the only individuals he dealt with, all the rest were pro stock teams, nascar teams and engine builders. Ah...cash always speaks loudly.

You ought to see what I went through on a billet block. All I wanted was a 9" or 9.2" deck height FE block....what a mess...

You don't have to use T&D's, you can run anything from the factory non adjustables to stud mounted 351C type rockers. Check the pictures here.

http://www.garrettmachine.com/cylinder_head/bluethunder_fe_alum.htm

These billet heads sound interesting. Canted valves sound like a pretty radical departure from the FE norm. I'm not sure there's a very big market for that but i'd love to see them.
It took till very recently for anybody to come out with a raised intake port smallblock Ford head and that's a huge market. Many racers did quite well with low port inline valves on those motors.

"The Poor Mans 427"
http://www.fordification.com/poormans427.htm

1973-1979 Ford Truck Enterprise Link:
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Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP

http://www.garrettmachine.com/

"The Poor Mans 427"
http://www.fordification.com/poormans427.htm

1973-1979 Ford Truck Enterprise Link:
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Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP

without a doubt. But....

I was at a Division 7 race a few years ago when Pond was just about to break into the 9's. I sat there and watched him go through the valve lift checking gyrations for a tech dude in the pits. I found it amazing that he was running iron Isky or Crane rockers on that motor. What's he shift at? 8 or 9 grand?

Understand?

I'm in it to see it live a long life (longer then it should), so to speak. I understand that kind of racing. Its like Nascar stuff. You better know what the hell your doing, otherwise it will cost ya $$$$.$$

Also getting to that point, I'm sure wasn't cheap and a lot of R&D..... I would take a little easier route to get to that point. I just want to have fun with it LOL. Maybe that's my problem.....LOL

"The Poor Mans 427"
http://www.fordification.com/poormans427.htm

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Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP

the idea was, that an iron rocker that can live in that engine, should be able to hold up pretty darn well in a weekend warrior. I question the status quo that has guys scrambling to buy big $$ rocker sets for warmed-over street machines.

Look, I used stock shafts with end supports and cheap Comp roller tip rockers that have a ton of miles on them now. Not to mention a solid roller cam (small but a roller cam). Stock didn't cut it for what I was trying to do with the engine. If its going to be an all out Drag car....Then the stock stuff will last a while. Just because your going a 1/4 mile at a time. Any type of street driving may not last as long. JMHO

"The Poor Mans 427"
http://www.fordification.com/poormans427.htm

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Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP

We always used the FPP rockers (now precision oil pumps makes them I think) with stock shafts. They never gave any problems, and that was with a BIG roller cam and a stick shift.

Are you talking 650lbs spring pressure over the noise? I would like to know for my Poor Mans 427 Project....

"The Poor Mans 427"
http://www.fordification.com/poormans427.htm

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Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP

I would have to look when I get back to the shop, but I think intake lift was around 860 or so. I dont rememeber the springs right off.

I have access to a new-in-the-box complete set of blue FPP rockers with spacers, stands, and hardened shafts. I passed on buying them because I thought they were made by Dove and limited to 350 pounds. Did I make a boo-boo?

DOVE rockers aren't limited to 350 pounds.... I am running standard width DOVE rockers with a solid roller and my springs are almost 600#. Been doing it for over 5 years in a stick car at near 7000 rpm, no issues. The HD rockers will go over 800#.

68 Cougar XR7 street and strip car, 428 4-speed, 3560# of fun, new best 10.43@131.2 1.47 60 ft

Sorry, I was off by 40 pounds. Should have been 390. I got this figure from Carrico's website. If you go there and look under Dove Rocker Assembly, you will see what I mean. It's the only reference I could find.

I bought a bunch of stuff from this person a few months back; a project or two he never finished. I passed on the rockers because the valve springs he had with the roller cam kit were 525 pounds. He still has them at 500 bones. These were made in the 80's. I don't think there are end stands.

DOVE's end stands. They tie into the end head bolts so you have 6 fasteners on each head. Everyone else's end stands are smaller and the outer end isn't secured by anything, it will still deflect. I called DOVE and they said I would be fine up to 600# and .650 lift with the standard rockers with "their" end stands.

68 Cougar XR7 street and strip car, 428 4-speed, 3560# of fun, new best 10.43@131.2 1.47 60 ft

You only want 600 hp? With stock style parts? No problem, we ran several Tunnel port engines that make around 650 in our nostalgia cars. 10.30's @ 3800 lbs. Simple, cheap, uses all stock parts (yes, we used real ford castings...ported and un ported) Problem solved.

Our best Edelbrock flowed around 360 cfm, had stock combustion chambers and plug locations and a ported c7zx intake. It made 750hp @421ci. Yes, you could get someone to copy the ports and do a "as cast" deal. The prices I got to do a custom mold for head castings was 125,000 to 250,000. This did not include port development, final machining, etc. Would this really fill the gap between Edelbrocks and my head? Dont forget, you can only sell them for 1000 buck a pair, so it will take a LONG time to get your investment back.

The head will be legal in any class that allows billets. Super Stock? Of course not. Super comp, super gas, outlaw 10.5, pro mod, super street, bracket, offshore boat, cobra kit cars, etc. Heck, we are planning on a twin turbo street car with these heads.....just something to drive around in. Practical? No. Fun? Yes.

My market is anyone who would spend 10 grand on heads. If you are not going to spend that, then you are not going to buy mine, cnc'd e460's, billet sbf or sbc, in fact, if they cant afford a 10k head, they wont be building 1500, 2000 or 2500 horsepower motors out of anything.

My market is not 600 hp engines. Never was. You can make that with stock parts. Heck, a dead stock 390 and some NOS will come close.

Yes, that's all I want for this application in question. It is adequate for a weekend bracket bomber without incurring all the tech baggage that comes along with a 10-second car. It is adequate to maintain the structural integrity of used $100 360/390 blocks. It is adequate to be able to have respectful performance out of a grassroots engine that I can build myself at home. It is adequate to be able to slap around the 350 Chevy and 351 Windsor guys who thought the 352 was only used to keep tug boats from floating away.

Edelbrock claimed at one time that their somewhat lackluster FE head was one of their best sellers. Obviously, they have made a profit from their R&D. I can't help but think that a "one notch up" version would sell even better.

There are more Chevies than Cadillacs.

I'd be tickled to death to see your heads making waves in the classes you mentioned. We are, without a doubt, on opposite ends of the FE world. I'm just an old street racer from the SFV; the glory parts are just never going to be in my program.

I wasnt trying to offend you. This project just didnt start out for what you are looking for. We simply intended on winning a particular class, money no object. We never really intended on marketing these heads, since that would have let the cat out of the bag. These were designed and built to make 1100 hp on a full race 430" motor. Now that the class is gone, well, why not sell them. We will never recover the well over 100,000 that we have spent developing these heads, but we can make them available to people who want to run something different, and still be competative with the other high end motors.

that my gripe was about the FE industry in general, not about you or your company. I just feel that the "little guy" has gotten overlooked too much here. Oh well.

in some ways. But look at the people who post there mods and have done some neat stuff with the FE! Barry R offers some good deals and tries to help us out and give sound advice. Jay did a bunch of intakes to compare on his dyno. Otherwise I guess we can bench race and not tell how we got there and what it took. I try to see it as the glass is 1/2 full. Am I wrong???

"The Poor Mans 427"
http://www.fordification.com/poormans427.htm

1973-1979 Ford Truck Enterprise Link:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/399900



Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP

Well, when we used to nostalgia race a good bit, as far as stock parts go, we were as fast or faster than comparable motors, like the chevy 409, dodge max wedge 426, pontiac 421? stuff. All of us had heavy cars, basically told super stock cars. I do miss those races in Moresville and farmington.......

But, the FE and the others I mentioned got left in the 60's, surplanted by the 396-454, 429-460....Better blocks, better heads, more put into cars.

There are very few of us that will make it to the PRI show and see them in person.Thanks for the hard work on developing these heads.

69 R code Mustang coupe 68 1/2 R code Mustang coupe 70 ram air Drag Pack Cougar 67 505 F.A.S.T legal Fairlane

I will be making a trip in the next few weeks, so I will take some pictures and post them then. The bad news is it will be after the PRI show, the good news is that I wont be suprised to see some pictures surface from someone at the PRI show. This has got to make the news....when is the last time the performance industry some something like this? I have some pictures somewhere of the heads when they were in the development stage (in the mill, stuck on a block, etc) I just cant find them right now. Be patient.....soon....

Think a set of these heads would wake up the 352 in my 65 F-100 ???......heh heh.....just joshin...



Richard.

How the heck are you?

Actually the Edelbrocks ARE your 600HP head with very little effort. At $1500 bucks they are a deal in cylinder head land. All we need to do is convince them to "splash" a decently ported set and we're there for under two grand. If they won't do it - and I've had that conversation with them - I probably will. I have the contacts and resources to do just that. Stay tuned....

The BTs are decidedly better than the Eds in many ways. It would be better for budget builds if they had not moved the exhaust ports, if they came as an assembled set, and if they had stock height rocker mountings - but budget builds were not the design target. They will accept stone stock valvetrain parts with the single exception of requiring high riser stands. If you really wanted you could cut standard ones down to size. While I much prefer the T&D package it is not mandatory. At the end of the day I don't think you could properly valve job & assemble a set of BTs for much under two grand even with the most rudimentary parts and labor.

Cheap iron ain't gonna happen. Iron is a real *&%$%@ to cast and machine at low volume. Aluminum is really clean and comparatively easy. Aftermarket iron tends to be a steep learning curve. With the Ed head as cheap as it is there ain't much reason to go lower.

I ran stock rocker parts for a looooong time - with end supports they rarely break, but they sure bend & flex.

This new billet head sould like a new "top of the food chain" part. Pretty cool - and there are a fair number of guys that want to go there.

Barry Rabotnick
Survivalmotorsports.com

How's that for a subject line to get people to read this post? LOL! I'm such a hole.

Hey, the chambers on them thar Eds are too big. When you have to go to custom pistons to get high compression out of your short-stroke FE, then the expense goes up even more. Likewise for cutting down decks and manifolds.

I'm in a quandary that I'm sure others have faced. I want to go weekend racing with a 428-powered car. But, the value of 428 blocks has gone up to the point where they can't be considered expendable. Look how many guys here have shelled big-bore blocks this year alone. Ouch.

So, I decided instead to use up 390 blocks. Problem is, compression is down with the same heads, made even worse with aluminum. This is the case for iron, not so much the cost. Although, RHS and Dart and whoever (even our buddy Pro Comp) have their heads in iron at a lower cost.

I don't see a big R&D cost to this. Small chamber designs already exist. Better flowing FE ports already exist. If you want to be killer, maybe figure out a cast-in or bolt-in end stand. Done.

I glad you think that people will line up for $10k billet heads. Back where I had my old shop in Cal, there was a custom body shop that built a rep for doing those slant-nose 911 Porsche conversions. He was hooked up with a place that provided tricked flat 6 engines. My upholsterer did the leather; I did the sound and security. Big dollar toys, those. However, each car took a while to do, and the owner finally had to set aside floor space to do collision work so employees and overhead could be paid on time.

Bread and butter, bread and butter.

BTW, if you have need of a moniker for your heads or complete engine packages to go along with the Prison Break theme, I have one for you to consider.

Yours truly, FElony

Not to revert back to the PSE intakes but do any of you know the cost of 1 of these? Also I am impressed, this is the longest thread I have seen in a while!!!!

Bedoian made a few of those many years ago, and they are few and far between. So, I don't think there is a set price.

This is a long thread. Maybe I can get Brian to make me a bunch of sour grapes out of billet. It would be much more appropriate for me than any of that pesky mistletoe.

You say that you want a small chamber head with big flow numbers that will give 600 HP from a flat top 390? Sorry, I don`t think that could happen, within reason. You want 600HP without the hassles of a 10 second car?, Unless you are running a 5000 lb schooner, it certainly doesn`t take 600 HP to run in the 10`s, hell, my 3100 lb Fairmont is knocking on the 9 second door with considerably less than 600HP. Rather than look for a really small combustion chamber cyl. head, why not just buy some Speed Pro type "off the shelf" domed pistons to bump up the compresion? I doubt that there would be a big market at all for a 60cc head, as MOST street FE`s would want to be running on pump gas, so the need for such a small chamber would be minimal. As for the cast iron rockers, I ran them for many years, never broke a rocker unless there was an interferance issue, but the non pivoting valve end does wear the valve guides when used with large lift cams. Being a NHRA Stocker, Robert Pond has to run cast iron rockers, and really, with his .500" camshaft, they are most likely totally adequate. I don`t know what your end plans would be, but if you already have a 428 block and crank, you could build a engine similar to mine for about $3000. depending on machine work costs. Basically stock CJ iron heads, stock block, crank, 3/8" rods, etc. Ain`t nothing exotic at all required! Personally, I doubt that I would ever spend even $3000. for a set of "ready to go" heads for my car, but I certainly think that it`s cool that somebody is willing to step up to the plate to offer a really high end set of heads for guys with deeper pockets than me, for a very small niche market. I`ll never own a 8 second FE car, but it would sure be cool to see somebody else build one!!

428 powered Fairmont drag car, Best ET:10.03@132.11MPH, best 60 ft: 1.29
59 Meteor 2 dr. sedan 332, Ford O Matic
74 F350 ramp truck 390 4speed

If we did a 64cc head it would work darn well.

On a .030 over 390 it'd be just under 11:1 on flat top pistons - a good serious pump gas number. A modest dish would pop it down at around 10:1 - still a good place to land for heavier rides.

On a 390 stroker the numbers would be right around 12:1 with flat tops & a hair over 11:1 dished.

How about a 64cc head with the BT style intake port modeled after my CNC port, which is smaller in cross section than the current BT MR casting has. The exhaust can be modeled after the conventional Edelbrock with modest tweaking. It can have the elevated T&D rocker mountings, with cut down OE height mount points in between them. All I need now is a fairly large and leak free bucket of cash.....

And I am always open to stealing good names and ideas wherever they may come from

Barry Rabotnick
Survivalmotorsports.com

I know I'm not crazy. I think. I'm out on anything that requires fancy schmancy rockers, though. I have at least 8 sets of iron adjustables; I wanna use 'em.

Screw it. I have a set of nicely ported Doorstop heads that I got incredibly cheap. My first expandable 390 has slightly dished pistons, so I'm going to call them 9.5's. I have a .590 lift classic Crane solid Compucam. Should be nice and easy on the tires out of the hole. However, I may be able to modify Warren's methane reclamation apparatus into a fart cannon, hooked to the driver's seat. All I have to do is stop at Taco Bell on the way to the track, and BINGO! Instant holeshot guaranteed.

If you do your heads, think about CCH. Conspiracy to Commit Horsepower.

Can anyone offer proof?

BTW FElony, you can still race. Just dial a higher number.

I don't believe science and medicine has come that far.

If he put's a stick in it, he'd fit in with us Super Shifters nicely though.

I'm thinking, if I can get air under the tires, I'll call the car "FElony Flight".

I'd love to race with a stick. My first street racer was a stick with a 2800 lb. McLeod clutch and stock '68 shifter. I applied lessons about muscle control that I learned in martial arts class to develop a speed shift that startled several of my friends at the time. I never missed a gear during a race, ever.

Now, I'm not so sure I want to endanger a Top Loader. Sounds funny, but my dark secret is that I'm a parts numbers guy. I have six factory Cobra Jet cars and some lesser numbers cars. I am conscious of the value of correct stuff, and I just cannot risk grenading any of it.

So, perhaps a Jerico is the answer. It would sure blow the low budget approach, though. There is no Super Shifters presence down here, so no "gang" to hang with, no input on setting up the new style clutches and suspension. I may have to dye my shirts pink and run a C6. [shudder]

Well, I do own a couple schooners, including a Raven Black '63 Country Sedan. But, I was looking to race something in the intermediate line, at about 3800 pounds. I guess 280 cfm might still cut it, but I'd still want a small chamber. Remember, I'd need more power than you would to run the same time because I have no experience in putting together a car that hooks. Oh sure, I could fill the front tires with helium, but that's cheating.

Aren't Speed Pros now made in India? Yecch.

Even though the goal is just weekend bashing, I like the sound and feel of compression. The FE likes compression. It's more about the experience than a killer ET. 390's aside, the idea of showing up with a high-winding 352 really floats my boat, too.

if I remember correctly.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/75943/message/1213663592/PSE+Intake+(351C+to+FE)+-+not+mine

There were more than a few made.

Are you the same Ed from Gordon, Ga?????

I work for Ed.

good to know you're making progress....

I gave up on the C7ZX intake.