I recently obtained a set of factory headers for my 66 Galaxie. One of the flanges was broken on the right side, so I took it to a reputable welder. I had thought he would do the Ni rod repair, but when I picked it up it was brazed. I questioned him about it, he said that he had brazed numerous exhaust manifolds with no trouble. The repair looks good, he trued the mounting surface so it is nice and flat. Is brazing an acceptable repair? Once I get it mounted, if it doesnt show signs of problems, will it remain robust with all the heat cycles it will go through? I'm thinking I'll attach it to a head that is on the bench and see what it does.
Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP
Wes, we discussed this topic a couple of years ago and I was seriously considering buying a powder-spray setup, but I hit a brick wall trying to get information on suppliers. Who's setup do you guys use?
Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP
I Think It's Going To Break As Soon As You Torque It Down
December 4 2008, 9:54 AM
I'm Sure Charlie Trudel will chime in if he's available. Jet Hot dropped one of his NOS 1965 427 manifolds causing a similar break and they were given exact instructions on how to weld it, I think it was with nickel rod. They brazed it instead and sent it back. It broke as soon as the bolt started to tighten. Charlie had the proper repair done and it bolted up fine.
By the way, Jet Hot refused to repay Charlie for having the correct repair done. They Suck!! ww
You could beat the F*#@ out of it with a 10lbs hammer and it wont break. Ask some of the FE guys who came out for the BBQ and watched my Uncle use the stuff and beat the hell out of it. The only way to fix it right in my eyes. JMHO
Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP
The problem with brazing cast iron or steel that is subject to heating and cooling is that the brass expands faster that the cast as it heats and when it cools it contracts faster so that ultimately failure will occur. This may take minutes or years, An ony- acetelene torch is probably the most successful using a cast iron rod and preheating the part and letting it cool after the weld over a period of hours usually by packing it in hot sand. Spray welding might be the best, but I have had no experience with that method.
If you had a class on it......You wont look back! The cool part is, its hard to tell where its been repaired and you can Pen it to match the rest of the casting. If you ever get a chance to see one in work, you need to see it. JMHO
Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP
By far, the spray powder cast iron welding method is the best! I had a 429 cj cylinder head that dropped an exhaust valve, and succeeded in removing the roof of the combustion chamber! I found a company in Long Island, NY, [forget their name now] that advertised this type of welding, and showed pics of their repairs, before and after. I shipped my head to them, and they examined it, called me with an estimate, and I had them repair it. They replaced the lost casting, and built up the material to cut in the seat. Long story short, the head was less than .0015" warpage from heating process- I simply lapped in the new valve, assembled the head, and bolted it on! The combustion chamber was finished just like the other three! Honestly, without looking really close, you couldn't tell which chamber had been repaired! It ran fine for as long as I owned it-never any trouble!
Some of you guys may know of the shop in Long island, they even welded 2 b.b. chevies together, block to block and crank to crank [no crank couplers] to get around the rules of "one engine" for the tractor/truck pullers! This had to have been at least 10 years ago, so I figure the technique is much better refined by now! Dean
Silicon bronze/nickel rod is the correct form of repair.
December 4 2008, 11:45 AM
The problem with many places that claim they can do these repairs is that they don't clean and prep the manifold correctly. By cleaning I mean heating it to where all the carbon deposits from combustion are removed. Also, before any welding occurs the part needs to be preheated. This is because the shock of temperature increase by welding the cracked area makes it even more weak if not preheated. Then the edges of the crack get silicon bronze coated using a TIG torch to braze it to the manifold. After silicon bronze, a nickel alloy rod is used to fuse the silicon bronze together and thus fixing the crack. If you don't think silicon bronze is strong try running a drill bit through it!
Silicon bronze brazes very well to cast iron and in turn nickel rod does to silicon bronze.
What you don't see is that you can get different Rockwell hardness when using spray metal. I think from 20 all the way up to 80. Cast iron is around 25. Doing head repairs with this stuff is cool and I wont say its easy LOL. And yes it has to be clean and Ved out. You need to do a little research on this stuff. If you have never seen it done....You need to! Brazing might be a thing of the past before to long. Its kind of new but what isn't with technology anymore. JMHO
Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP
I had a Cleveland 4bbl exhaust manifold repaired with " spray"
December 4 2008, 4:18 PM
Big long crack in the manifold. My local machine guy said " no problem ". Darndest thing I ever watched. This was about 5 yrs ago. Been driving the crap out of the motor too and no leak. If I recall, he got a grinder first and cleaned the area out good, got the torch and got it red hot and started spraying this powder looking stuff in it methodically until it was full and it as basically done minus visual cosmetic but I wasn't worried about that.
This is the first time since then I have heard of this " spray " repair. From my experience it works or has worked for me. Warren.
68 Torino GT S code 390 fstbk
70 Torino GT 351cl 4spd
71 Torino Cobra 429 C6
Wes' Uncle demonstrated the metal spray on un-pre-heated specimens and it was impressive. He made it look easy (sign of an expert) casually heated up the area with the oxy-acetelyne torch and then turned on the powder metal flow. He built up shapes and fixed breakage on a Chevy head and then offered anyone a chance to swing at it with a sledge hammer. I believe the virgin cast iron might be more prone to breaking than his spray metal repairs.
In addition to repairs, it also seemed possible to make things that didn't exist, like extra exhaust manifold bolt bosses on particular Pontiac heads. It would have been intersting if somehow he could spray weld together the poorman's 427, or maybe make some modern heart shaped combustion chambers in our old wedge heads.
If you go to big truck engine shop you'll see it all the time. The guy showed me how and I was amazed at how well it works. I thought about doing it on the main webs of an FE down where they crack at the oil galley. You would have to line bore it, but it should keep it from cracking.
I'm old school and prefer NiRod for repair of cast iron anything if ascetics are not an issue. Its high nickel content (55%) provides a similar coefficient of expansion rate and strength (55-60 kips) eliminating harmful stress due to temperature cycling. However, brazing, with the right filler material is also very durable. Grade IV or V (silver braze) brazing rod is my preference due to its elevated melting temperature and higher strength, at least for grade IV. Prepping parent metal, cleanliness, preheat of parent metal, correct flux and controlled post braze cooling is key to successfully joining dissimilar metals for trouble free service. The only drawback is the unsightly dissimilar color of the repair. If it was my header, I'd go with spray welding. GE developed the process sometime in the 40's or 50's and it was limited to repair of shafts and coating of materials subject to high abrasion, corrosion and high temperature applications. I employed the GE Apparatus Shop in the 60's & 70's to use the process for a number of prototype applications, which proved to be very successful regarding longevity and cost reduction. It's good to know the process has been expanded to include repair of castings; I learned something else today, LOL-Oliver
Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP
Wreckless Warren is correct. Brazing will not work.
December 4 2008, 12:49 PM
As soon as you torque it down, it will break. The very same thing happend to my header, a braze repair was done and it did not hold. I took it to another welder, and repaired it using 99% nickel wire. Not a lot of guys using that, so you may have to shop around. Look for an ASME certified welder. My guy specialized in aerospace welding. Charged me $150 and worth every cent. It is important that the header pipe be PRE-HEATED before welding, AND COOLED SLOWLY after. Your certified welder will know what to do. Charlie
This message has been edited by CharlieTroudq on Dec 4, 2008 12:57 PM This message has been edited by CharlieTroudq on Dec 4, 2008 12:57 PM This message has been edited by CharlieTroudq on Dec 4, 2008 12:53 PM
Re: Wreckless Warren is correct. Brazing will not work.
December 4 2008, 1:38 PM
I use the .99% nickel wire and it is good. Basically the same as the old Nirod except the wire uses argon gas and is a clean job.
It's pricey stuff - a 2 pound spool is $100+, but there is nothing like it.
I have used it on heads and manifolds with good success.
40 years ago i needed a manifold repaired and an old welder said he could fix it, when i returned to pick it up it was brazed and i felt disapointed to say the least. my dad always said brazing is just an expensive solder job, well that manifold lasted as long as the car and i drove it for years. it had an ear broke off that held the exhaust pipe on and after the fix i tightened probably tighter than i should have and it held up fine.
I have had several things brazed in the past ranging from transmission cases, gear boxes, diesel blocks you name it. If done by an experienced welder it is very strong. It won't break just by bolting it down unless it was not done correctly. It's a little old school and there may be and probably is better ways to do it now but in the proper hands a brazing rod is still a good tool. That said I would never use it on any exhaust, it just wont hold up in that application. John
that had had a lot of work done to it. Long story short---I arranged to have it repaired by a local guy who's probably the best welder in the world. Now I'll stop while the noise settles, and then tell you that he's the guy retained by Ford to weld the two blocks and four heads that were necessary for the 'GT 90' the show car from a few years ago. Ford wanted a 12 cylinder engine and had Chris weld together the front cylinders of one block and the back cylinders of another and then do the same to the head pieces to come up with the basic engine. They then used a billet crank.
To repair my windowed block, Chris used a method developed to repair the crucibles used in iron foundries. The preparation makes use of equipment that is bolted to the work piece in such a way as to be able to send a particular frequency of vibration through it. After dialing it in, it's left for about 20 minutes and then pre-heated with a rosebud and welded with the nickel rod. Frequent stops give time to stress relieve the new weld by hand using a pointed hammer. The vibration continues during the welding and stress relieving.
This vibratory treatment is one of the things used by NASCAR engine builders to toughen their blocks before use.
Chris has more work than he can easily do. He does no advertising. But I'm sure that there'll be a whole chorus of praise from guys from the Detroit area who've used his services. He'll fit you in. And he's a super guy. That's the way to repair iron!
KS
Thanks for all the replies. I will bolt the manifold up to a head and see if it survives that. If so, it sounds like it will eventually fail with use anyways. Looks like I wasted my money on this, and should find another weld shop and do it right.
Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
79 F-250 X-Cab 4x4 with a 6.9 Turbo Diesel
64 Falcon X-Ram 428
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with X-Ram 428
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP
I spoke with another welder in the area. He said once the part is brazed then it wont be repairable. I'm thinking he doesnt know what he's talking about, I know Charlie's was brazed and it was subsequently fixed.
I'll mount the header on an head and see if i can break it.
Tom
Weld preparation is important. Any contaminants, such as an alternate filler material, must be removed. Grind off the braze so that you are only dealing with cast iron. Use a carbide bit as even the particles left imbedded by a grinding wheel can compromise the weld joint. That's all.
I have also been told by a fairly good welder that rather then grinding, one should gouge the area before welding as any kind of grinding will close the naturally open pores of the cast. Don't know though.
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