so here is the deal, i am a college student studying Technology Education and i am building a '68 390 FE. I am curious what type of oil i should run (synthetic or blend). I was thinking about Royal Purple, but a machinist told me not to waste my money and just run a blend.
I would also like to know if I do plan to run synthetic, is it necessary to use synthetic break in grease as well as synthetic assembly lube on all the parts?
I was also curious if anyone knew where i could get an assembly checklist that is ford FE specific?
thanks
If you are running a flat tappet cam, that will drive your oil decisions. n/m
November 19 2008, 9:11 AM
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1954 Ford Customline 2-dr. sedan 390 4-speed
1955 Ford Fairlane Victoria 2-dr. hdtp, 292
1962 Ford Galaxie 500, 4-dr. sedan, 292
1968 Ford LTD 2-dr hdtp, 390 auto. (rough but driveable)
1970 F-100 360 auto (owned since 1985)
Valvoline Racing oil is recommended for break in and long term use.
1912 Model T Ford touring Salmon (ugh!)
1913 Model T Ford Touring original Black paint
1915 Model T Ford Roadster Black
1915 Model T Ford touring Black of course!
1967 Cougar GT 390 Cardinal Red / Black
1968 Cougar GTE 427 Augusta Green / Saddle
http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/15029/50071-2
are totally based on your preference. In that...you should never break a motor in with synthetic. It won't allow the rings to seat(oil is too slippery), so a std blend oil is better in that instance. Once you get 3-5K miles on it, then switch over to your favorite synthetic. A stocker type motor usually runs a 10w30 or 10w40 oil, a looser clearanced "race built" motor usually runs a 20w50. The big issue is newer oils don't have the proper additives for "old" hydraulic lifters(non roller). You'll wipe out the cam in short order if you don't use the proper oil.
Always use the proper break-in lube for your camshaft/lifters, as this is VERY critical to their longevity. Most cam suppliers have their own, but most are all the same, so as long as you use any you're good. Coat the cam/lifter very liberal when assembling, prime motor before starting and then make sure you get the rpm up after you get it started for the break-in run.
Any of your local parts stores will have "motor books" that you can use to assemble yours with. Assembly of a motor is basically the same as for most any std pushrod motor, so nothing too fancy about putting an FE together. There are some popular machining tricks that alot of us follow, but most aren't in regular books.
LarryK
1964 Galaxie 2dr 390/6-71/4spd
1964 Country Sedan Wagon 428/5spd
1969 F100 428/4spd
1967 F100 352/now a 4 spd!
1959 B Model Mack
This message has been edited by BattlestarGalactic on Nov 19, 2008 9:22 AM
You can get Steve Christ's book How to Rebuild Your Big Block Ford, which is a good reference book on assembly. It starts are diagnostics before you tear it down through reassembly.
Do a search and you will find plenty of info on oils/zinc etc. If its a newer built engine and you are not racing, a 10W30 with zddpplus added you would be fine.
In my humble opinion {and alot of professional engine builders} I use Joe Gibbs break in oil. It has ALL the zinc & additives & I use it on the dyno
& put it in all my new engines race or street. After break=in I would use Joe Gibbs
Hot Rod Oil. It comes in two types 10w-30 & 15w-50. The Hot Rod oil has the zinc & other additives our cars need INCLUDING an additive developed & used by the military
for excessive downtime {car in the garage over the winter}. If you need it
let me know & I will be happy to help, as I stock plenty of it.
Best of Luck with your car!
marty burke i sure would like to buy a coupel cases of your oil i have 10/second 351 fairlane need good oil to put in for raceing this spring 12 to 1 comp man said ha run som sponsor synthecit oil i need a oil sponsor and any other sponsor i have a jim dandy 67 fairlanewith fiberglass frount end withscoop factory&trunk skinny anyway i will buy 2 cases 15w50 oil joe gibs do i get a decal skinny
that it shouldn't be used on break in. Synthetic oil is used in many new cars from initial start up through break in. Of course those engines are very different from our old FE's but what would stop someone from using it for breaking purposes. I feel its one of those myths that have grown from no real facts just speculation. Does anyone have any real proof?
Methinks I'll get into a lot of trouble here but.....
Many new modern era cars do use syn. oil right from the factory and have been doing so for some years. However, they all use roller lifters and steel cams and do not have the 'swiping' issues that older flat tappet cams have. I tend to believe the factories used high ZDDP levels in traditional dino oil simply because it was cheap...or at least cheaper than the first widely available syn oil, Mobil 1, which was $4.00/qt even 20 years ago.
As to rings (and other load bearing engine parts for that matter) I never really believed that synthetic oil would/could cause, for example, poor seating. But, there was still another reason why the factories didn't use syn. oil as it became available: leaking engine seals!
Back when Mobil 1 first became available, I and others were shocked to see that in an older car (and not that old either) after an oil change in a little as 500 miles, half or almost all the oil was gone! What happened was the super slippery oil would leak past each and every pan, crank, front cover gasket joint. SBC were the worst leakers on any oil (!) but with Mobil 1 it was really bad.....some customers came in fuming since the oil light went on and only then did they find no oil on the dipstick. Over many years, the makers vastly improved sealing surfaces and developed far better gaskets to contain oil, leading to many modern cars that really don't ever leak any oil.
In my personal opinion the slippery synthetic oil has nothing to do with the rings seating. Proper honing of the cylinders is what will seat the rings. Yes the earlier engines (pre 80's) were prone to leaking. Once manufacturers switched to silicon based sealants in the 80's the problems stopped. There is no better oil than the synthetic oils and I've seen it first hand. What sold me on them was when I opened up an engine to replace the rear main oil seal. The engine had 150K on it and the customer ran Mobil 1 since the day she bought it new. The engine looked like it was put together yesterday and the bearings had "0" wear on them. That was all I needed to see.
That has got to be some of the most accurate information concerning synthetic oil. In regards to the leaking, in addition to better gaskets and seals, I believe the formulation of synthetic oil has been changed to address that issue.
If it has a flat tappet cam, one must use a high ZDDP content oil like the Shell Rotella oil mentioned in a post above. Although I am not familiar with Royal Purple's current blends, if it has a ZDDP level of 850-1,000 ppm+, I'd use it. That or a high ZDDP oil along with G.M.'s E.O.S. supplement.
If your running a roller cam (hydro or solid) pretty much any old oil will work fine!
is an '02 Lincoln LS, bought new. The dealer changed the oil for the first 40K miles. I brought it in and they changed the oil and filter, rotated the tires, and did anything else that had come up. They used a 'semi-' oil that was a mixture of dino and synthetic. The engine is a 4-cam, 4-valve V-8 and has direct cam-valve actuation by way of a 'bucket' follower that sets over the valve spring and mostly gives a huge lash-cap effect. The top of the bucket holds shims that function to set the lash.
There is, therefore, no roller---the cam lobe directly wipes the shim on the end of the bucket. I have 121K miles on the original engine and am building a new one to keep things going. Although there are witness marks in the center of the bucket shims, there's no observable wear.
I've used Mobil 1 from the time I took over at the 40K mark.
I know my Kawasaki ZX7R bikes have that design(91-95 have cam lobe on rocker arm, 96+ have lobe on valve). No noticeable wear after 75,000 miles each and revs to 13,000 RPM.
Do not break in an engine on synthetic oil. Just trust me on this one. What works in an OE engine plant will NOT work in your driveway.
I sold roughly $22 million per year in aftermarket piston rings during my time at Federal-Mogul. At one point I managed the Sealed Power and Speed-Pro ring product lines concurrently. The man who worked with me was one of the nation's foremost ring design engineers, and I believe he would agree on this. Over those years a fair amount of consumers and racers would call in with ring break-in issues. A good percentage of those had used a sythetic oil - and often experienced problems for the first time doing so. I'm not talking about Saturday night racers either - some of these were very well known professional shops.
An OE plant uses a straight vertical travel power hone on cylinders - not the arc travel hone common to the aftermarket. Their cylinders are rounder, more consistantly, than our's. They control the oil chemistry, the fuel chemistry, and the fuel mixture on fire up - and none of these may be the same as what you or I can purchase.
Synthetic on break-in is taking a risk with no reward. why would anybody do that?
if anybody would know this you would so correct me if I'm wrong but, wasn't there a point in time where piston ring designs changed and thus required a finer grit final hone? Could this have caused this problem with guys thinking it was the synthetic oil at fault? I know guys who had incorrectly honed their cylinder walls and ran regular oil had issues with proper ring seal. What's your thought about this and has anyone that you know of tried to break in an engine recently with synthetic?
Synthetic oil costs 2 - 4 times as much. What possible reason would one have to do that experiment when using conventional oil is cheaper and proven to not cause a problem?
Initial fire up of a new 427 is something I am not going to take chances with. I use the best quality Valvoline straight weight non detergent oil along with a can of GM EOS. Run it for 25 minutes at 2500, then drain the oil. Done it a half dozen times in the past two years, probably 25 times in my life. Never had a single problem.
Why would I want to spend more money using synthetic oil and risk wiping the cam and having the rings not seat???????? Answer: I wouldn't because I know better.
1912 Model T Ford touring Salmon (ugh!)
1913 Model T Ford Touring original Black paint
1915 Model T Ford Roadster Black
1915 Model T Ford touring Black of course!
1967 Cougar GT 390 Cardinal Red / Black
1968 Cougar GTE 427 Augusta Green / Saddle
http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/15029/50071-2
observations. I don't doubt your facts and agree that merely for initial start-up, it's likely wise to use dino oil and avoid even the potential for any ring sealing issues. After start-up and some easy miles, a switch to syn. would seem to be in order.
But like Dave says, haven't ring designs, materials and cylinder honing techniques progressed today where the type of oil isn't the prime variable? I understand the differences between OEM honing and start-up procedures (good example that you provided) versus what can be accomplished in the field. I still wonder though if I have a torque plate equipped, honed cylinder (CNC) and modern moly rings in a professionally built engine today how syn. use would screw-up the ring seal?
This message has been edited by machoneman on Nov 20, 2008 6:27 AM
Even the vendors that make/sell syntetic oil do not recommend using their products for Break-in. Why all the hoopla over using it? You will have to drain it after break-in anyway.
The tighter the tolerances, the better the build - the less need for break-in as it is traditionally thought of. The science of engine building has come a long way since the 60's - 70's, previous to synthetic oil arrival and widespread use by the general public. I will agree, that an engine that was built to higher assembly standards, "could", be broken in with synthetic oil...but that still doesn't answer the bigger question of Why?
This message has been edited by beoweolf on Nov 20, 2008 8:44 AM
Thats the truth, draining it immediately after run in is important
November 20 2008, 11:22 AM
I like to get all of the stuff out that doesn't need to be after a 30 minute heat cycle. You would be amazed whats in the filter in that short of a time. I have been using Rotella SAE30 and a can of STP for the run in on the last couple of flat tappet engines down at the shop. So far so good. The Lunati Voodoo in the 302 (pretty vicious 250°/256° seat to seat 207°/213° @ .050) broke in all right, the rest have been stock. He ran the Rotella SAE30 without the STP for 500 miles, then changed to Penzoil 10w30 against my advice. Its his baby now though, we will see if 800 ppm of ZDDP is enough. I am betting it won't. But that's between him and my brother in law. I won't be touching it.
break-in oil should be changed. I do remember an Amsoil rep long ago stating that using cheap dino break-in oil was wise for another reason....flushing out all the crap that even a careful rebuild leaves in the oil and filter. Using expensive syn oil and needing to change it right away would and did scare folks away from using it with a new build. Heck, in the mid 70's when Mobil 1 became available it was $4/qt. and IIRC brand name dino oil was well under $1/qt!
That is one drawback that I don't like about many of those who use syn oil: reduced oil change frequency. Floating debris, moisture, carbon from the burning of fuel, dirt, worn-off steel, iron etc. all exist in that crankcase environment and can only exit the engine upon an oil change. Sure, I've read many a testimony of extended syn oil changes being o.k. (through teardowns and part inspections) but once it looks dirty, I'm changing mine even though it gets expensive.
Ring designs have changed in the OE world - but they really have just mirrored changes that the race community have embraced for quite some time. These are mainly in terms of reduced cross sections - thinner in both thickness and width. They have gone to entirely ductile iron of steel for the base material, with a plasma-moly facing. The common Speed-Pro or perfect Circle race ring has been like this for many years - so our world has not changed - the OEMs have simply caught up..
Barry. That helps quite a bit. After thinking about your posts, I agree that to avoid any, even a minor risk, for what I'll call in "field" engine rebuilds, break-in should be done with dino oil.
Switching to syn, after the fact, does have many benefits though the only drawback IMO is the high cost/qt. For my summer rides (two winter garage queen Mustangs!) I'll gladly pay the higher price.
I agree with Marty and Barry R..............................
November 20 2008, 8:45 PM
NEVER use synthetic in a fresh engine. I also like the Gibbs oil. I get it from Marty regularly.
In class racing, ring seal has been one of the most important issues since the beginning. It was quickly proven when synthetics came out that they would cause problems in new or fresh engines. There are many factors that contribute to this. One that most overlook is that the oil will not burn. Conventional oils will. Part of what seals a ring is the burned oil that is deposited in the cross-hatch of the hone job. The burned oil creates a surface in the cross-hatch that promotes sealing. Having a cylinder honed correctly to retain oil is vital and also using an oil that will burn into the surface is important. It provides a base for the piston and the ring to glide across. If you ever pulled a head off a very fresh engine you will see the hone marks very clearly due to deposits left by the oil it burned during the break-in.
Not a big fan of synthetics, I will agree that in some situations synthetic oil is better for bearing life and high load/high heat situations. I generally think synthetic oil is a good way to loose ring seal IF you don't have a dry sump system. Most guys that think they pick up ET with the stuff could probably pick up just the same with a heated 5/20 made of dinosaur guts. As far as street drivers go, I have two ten-year-old Fords with 200K plus miles that have never seen a drop of synthetic oil, and never will. We drove my wife's new 09 Mustang from Velde Ford in Vero Beach, FL to home in Tennessee, and the first thing I did was put 5/20 Valvoline in it. That's what I think of synthetic oil with no dry sump. Don't get too caught up in what the CUP guys are doing. That is a very different and controlled environment. Evacuation systems dry down the cylinder enough that the top ring can seal without the risk of having oil in the chamber. If you have a hot rod with open breathers or a PCV valve, leave that stuff to the other guys and use a high zinc conventional oil even after break-in.........JMO.
This message has been edited by CaptCobrajet on Nov 20, 2008 8:47 PM
We all have different opinions about synthetics...
November 21 2008, 6:02 AM
which is fine, but you cannot deny that they are far superior to conventionals when it comes to wear. Run conventional oil and synthetic oil in different engines under the same conditions for the same mileage and then compare the two. Its been proven scientifically and in the real world that synthetics protect the engine better.
I agree that in a drag racing engine that using synthetics is normally not beneficial. Due to the fact they aren't subjected to thousands of miles of use, constant oil changes and, frequently torn down its better to just use convential oils.
I also wouldn't use synthetics to break in an engine ONLY because of the expense. Break in oil is basically throw away oil after start up so it makes no sense to use it as such since it is expensive. However, I'm still look for someone to offer up proof that it is bad to use it for breaking in an engine. Show me smoking engines due to rings not sealing, wiped cams, worn bearings, whatever. We can all speculate but, with out facts its just guess work.
This is directly from the Amsoil website for those who said that the synthetic oil makers say you shouldn't break in an engine with their oil:
Answer: AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oil can be used during break-in trouble free. In fact, vehicles such as Dodge Viper and Chevrolet Corvette come factory filled with synthetic oil.
Since most new vehicles come filled with petroleum oil, it only makes good sense to change to AMSOIL at the first scheduled oil change interval. New engine components generate high levels of wear metals and can contain contaminants from assembly. By allowing the engine to operate with the petroleum oil until the first oil/filter change interval, the wear metals and contaminants are removed prior to installing AMSOIL.
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