I have a '66 7 litre with the stock 345hp 428, 123k miles. I am wanting to do a rebuild and want to spice it up a bit. I want it to be comfortable on the street or road trip but want it to have some extra guts. I have some ideas but I'm a novice and would like to hear what you guys have to say. Best bang for my buck, nothing too expensive, just a better than average, healthy 428.

Also, any good reading material along these lines?

Thanks,
Randy

a carb, recurve the dist or go msd and headers with good exhaust will be a good start, just headers over flat manifolds will be a giant improvement.

Get a 428CJ iron 4V intake and 735 CFM Holley carburetor. The C9AF 9510-U carbs are pretty cheap.

A set of headers with the above and you should have around 80 - 90 horsepower improvement.



1912 Model T Ford touring Salmon (ugh!)
1913 Model T Ford Touring original Black paint
1915 Model T Ford Roadster Black
1915 Model T Ford touring Black of course!
1967 Cougar GT 390 Cardinal Red / Black
1968 Cougar GTE 427 Augusta Green / Saddle
http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/15029/50071-2

I assume that you are going to rebuild the engine comnplete with that many miles. Get good machine work having the block bored and honed with torque plates, square deck the block to proper height for pistons used, hydraulic roller camshaft and lifters, degree the camshaft, rebuild the head correct with bronze guide liners and three angle valve job, cc and mill the heads for correct ccs needed for the pistons, balance the assembly, better intake and carburetor, electronic distributor and headers with better exhaust. Just having the engine machined and built right with a few modifications and a few up-grades can get you 100HP over the stock engine. Good luck, Keith Craft

Thanks for the response but it raises as many questions for me as it answers (being a novice).

This all sounds good but remember, I am looking for something I can run around town as well as make a 100 mile road trip. I would like to keep this car strong but quiet and not obviously muscled up (a sleeper if you will)as much as possible and RELIABLE.

Do you have any specific recomendations on headers, cam, intake, carb? Would you use stock pistons/rods or ?

How much more would these goodies cost over and above a stock overhaul? As far as that goes, how much should I expect a stock rebuild to cost done by a machine shop?

Definition of "torque plates"? Also "cc" and "ccs"?

Thanks,
Randy

Another question to you--what kind of tranny do you have?
If it an auto--you also need to update that older C6 to a
more modern version. That first year C6 needs to be reworked or better yet exchanged for about a 68 edition with a good rebuild.
Next go with everything stated above--your getting good advise--but would add one extra----either buy some edelbrock heads with the bigger valve's or have you heads
worked with the cobra jet size valves---hp then with a good set of header and intake along with say around an 850 double pumper and cam pushes on up to around 475hp or so.
Oh yes you can drive this where ever you want to go and not have to worry about anything except GT40's and Z06's
Be careful around those cars their dangerusly fast.

Given your questions this might be your 1st such build or the 1st one in a while?
So, here is a way to hedge your bet on the result:
Build the shortblock as follows:

"Level 1" and short block:
* Your rods are probably c3 or c6 stock rods with 3/8 bolts, those rods are fine reconditioned with modern bolts in them, ARP etc, since it will only shift at 4600-5400 when we are done
* I like forged pistons, yes they are a bit looser but less knock prone and we've run them thru many a Michigan winter so I don't see the thing about them being impractical. Go for compression of mid to hi 9s, keep it under 10.0. Your heads are probably about 72cc, same as the new Edelbrock heads you might want later.
* Deck height, go for .010" to zero-deck.
* Cam, use the 204-214 duration grind that Barry R at Survival on the forum and others sell too. It's cheap, reliable, a good wintertime cam, and a near clone of the 390gt/428cj cam that takes even less time to warm up on cold winter days. You can fire it up and go reilably on a cold day, and also when you are camping high in the rockies and don't want the cam to misbehave while a grizzly is trying to bang your door in because you tried to take a picture of her cubs from close range, oops.
* Make sure the oil pan is well baffled, even the big 6-quart stock Galaxie pan is very shaky with no baffles in it. Back then, these cars got no traction and turned like the Titanic so oil starving was not as big a deal as today.

Now you have a short block, including a cam that even the stock 7liter will live with. If you build the top end bone stock (4100 Autolite, iron "S" intake, iron c6ae-r or c6ae-u heads, flat iron exhaust with 2" outlets) you will have about 315-320hp at 9.5 compression, which is a bit more than the 305-310hp from the stock 66 7liter, my opinion of its actual output.

But now, without taking the engine back out of the car, you can build something similar to the 428cj (about 380hp) or the hydraulic 427 (almost 390hp) as follows:

"Level 2"
* Add the 390/428 Edelbrock heads. You can also get your stock iron reworked by one of the several gurus of FE cylinder heads.
* Add the 65-67 427 exhaust iron. Yes they are pricey, but when you figure in resale, they are probably cheaper than headers, quieter, and will keep a "factory" look given your 7-liter badge.
* For an intake use either a 427 Med Riser, 428 Police/Shelby, or if you cant find those an Edel RPM or Blue Thunder Med Riser.
* Get the c9af-u 735 Holley Royce recommended. If it gets tempermental, you can always swap back on your 440-520cfm Autolite 4100 temporarily or for better mileage on a long trip, just keep the Holley in the trunk and swap it on for the car show or race, I do this commonly.

By redoing the top end this way, you now have gone from under 320hp to about 390hp, and haven't pulled the engine or even the cam again. And, you can always re-sell the Ford part numbered carb, intake, and exhaust for a fair price and go back to what you had.

You can now go one more step and go for the 427 clone option instead by adding either the Comp 270s or Crane Fireball 294 cam, either of which are a near clone to the very streetable 406-427-4v cam of 63-64. You'd also need rockers & pushrods for the solid cam. This will take you to 410-425hp and it will "sound like" a stock 427, but still with a cam that doesn't need 15 minutes to sit in the driveway and warm up on a frosty morning (I've been there too.....). Otherwise, same parts as "Level 2".

You can shift any of these at 5400 or under so no need to get fancy with the engine parts and it will be a good around town or road trip car, a 3.25 gear would be good but even a 3.00 would not hurt it too much.

Every time I guess at Horsepower I end up wishing I'd just run the WerbyFord Gonkulator computer instead so I just did that. I was surprised at how low the stock 7-liter came out, but then it is quite in line with the road tests I know of on the stock 7L cars:
Aug 66 Motor Trend 16.90 at 85
Jan 66 Car n Driver 16.50 at 83
Apr 66 Motor Trend 16.90 at 81
Jan 68 Car Life 16.68 at 87.3
Now, these road tests tend to be pessimistic for 2 or 3 reasons:
1. Usually there are 2 people aboard so they are about 0.2 sec and 2 mph slow.
2. Often 5th wheel times instead of E.T.'s are reported so they are about another 0.3 sec slow compared to the E.T.'s often posted here from timeslips.
3. The tires back then were awful for traction.

Even accounting for this, the bone stock times are not too impressive. There is even one test from SuperFOrd or somewhere that was in the SEVENTEENS bone stock, I will try to dig that one out. Geez, there's stock Pintos that break into the 17's on a good day. And, typical for an early 60s 390 "300hp" (ie about 280 gross) is low-to-mid-16s at 82-85mph or so with 2 aboard. These 7L tests are comparable to that. This doesn't "prove" that the 7L only made 304-311hp off the production line, but it is consistent with my calculation of that estimate.

So that's the bad news - the stock 7L just isn't set up to breathe. I Gonkulate the stock 66 as, gross hp and torque:
Torq 413 at 2700
Powr 304 at 4300 (quite a bit under the "345" rating)

With the "Level 1" rebuild I just suggested I calculate:
Torq 425 at 2800
Powr 309 at 4400
(But hey this is at 9.7 compression so you could squeak by on regular gas in cool weather...)

The good news was on the Level 2 and Level 3 builds, these calculate to:
Level 2 - 204-214 hydraulic cam, Edel heads box stock:
Torq 478 at 3300
Powr 402 at 4900
This is a very tempting build since it would sound and behave like a stock 7L, and except for the 427 iron manifolds you couldn't tell if the intake was painted blue like the stock 428pi. If you just let the exhaust iron rust, many people wouldn't even notice those!

Level 3
Torq 475 at 3600
Powr 425 at 5300
Still totally streetable but now you would hear the dreaded "clatter" of solids, so your average Audi or BMW or Road Runner would quickly turn their turn signal on sending an "I need to be somewhere else right now" message. Not that we would ever do that.....

This should give you a closer idea of the numbers.
I bet you'd get 17mpg highway with the Level 2 build and a 3.00-3.25 rear, with the autolite carb anyway, that is pretty liveable. Then take 10 minutes and change to the 735 Holley at the strip and it will be in the 14's at just under 100mph. Be sure to use at least 2.5" pipes and the loosest mufflers you can stand with Level 2 or Level 3.

By the way in case Keith doesn't get to write back again - Torque plates are bolted on during honing to mock up the cylinder heads and bolt torque, so the block is "pre-distorted" when it is honed. And, "CC" means to measure, in cc or cubic centimeters, the volume of your heads, pistons, gasket, and deck so you can make sure they are the same and compute compression. This is always a good idea.

In 1966, they based horsepower on a more "ambitious", slightly different rating system than they did in 1968 forward.

You have 2 things going against you with that year Galaxie, first, its heavy (at least heavier than a mustang or other "pony car") and second the factory rating is more in line with its potential as opposed to its actual performance (when compared to later 428's).

As it stood, it was a stronger engine than the 390 in the regular run-of-the-mill 390's of the same year, but the factory 428's used in early passenger cars were not close to the CJ's and PI's that came later.

To keep your car reliable and still have better performance, if you match the configuration of the 68, 69, 70 CJ's (or the 428 PI -Police Interceptor), both engines (especially the PI) were made to run under factory warranty and capable of 50K - 100K durablity ..... you will feel and see the difference.

The price of labor varies pretty dramatically depending on your location and the nature of the shop doing the work. Sometimes the best guys won't be much more than the "run of the mill" types - - other times the diference in cost will be significant. The numbers below are just for illustration - - and can/will change a bunch depending....on everything.

A stock rebuilt "kit" will run between $300 and $600 - depending on whether it has brand name parts or generic "rebuilder" stuff. I try to avoid the really cheap parts because you have no way to verify the quality or source. The kit would include pistons, rings, bearings, gaskets, oil pump, timing set, and cam/lifters - all stock or stock replacement parts. Upgrading the pistons to forged or hypers and the cam to a brand name performance part will add $300-500...depending again on what you desire.

Block machining can go from $400 to $700 if its done well - and more if it's done really well. Lots more for true race quality stuff - but that's not where you're headed. If you budget $400 to check & turn the crank and fix up the rods you won't be surprised - it could well be less - but not likely more.

Your heads can be pretty widely variable depending on condition. I've seen them done for $300 and I've seen them at over $1000. Nobody can honestly sat until they are in hand.

Assembly aso varies a lot - stock style engines anywhere from $600 to $1200

So - based on the above - you will spend between $2300 to $4400 for a stock or near stock rebuild - more likely closer to the latter than the former. Even a stone stock rebuild will feel way stronger than a 123,000 mile old engine. If it were my old Galaxie I would look at adding some cubes via stroke if the budget was there. It would add roughly - very roughly - $1200 to the cost but also add like 40 lb-ft of torque and a coordinating amount of horsepower with no externally visible changes and no impact on driving characteristics - other than greater rear tire wear...

Barry Rabotnick
Survivalmotorsports.com

To answer some questions: C6 trans, 3.25:1 open rear (would like to have same gear but locker), and yes its been a long while since I overhauled an engine (30 years)!

Sorry I didn't respond sooner, I was digesting all the information. Like I said, I know enough to be dangerous. I understand about 85% of what you guys are talking about. So I have MANY questions.

Yes a "428" sounds impressive but I knew it really wasn't so much especially on such a heavy car so I wanted to try and spice it up.

Carb question: The original Autolite 4100 I have is a 1.08 venturi (that's what they put on these 7 litres(?)) I"ve been reading a lot about these 4100's and how good they are. Could I just go with a 1.12 carb perhaps off of a PI engine if I could find one for originality sake or is that just impractical?

Cams: I know nothing about. "degree the cam" what does that mean?

Heads: Would it be cheaper to rework my heads with bigger intake valves, or buy Edel heads you suggested?

Just how much are factory 427 iron headers? Do you have a # I should look for? Would they be off of a 66 Galaxie or ?

Intake: I like the idea of finding a PI that would look stock but would do whatever made sense.

Whats better about a 68 C6 over rebuilding my 66 C6?

Oil pan: I think my pan is a 5 quart. You talked about baffled,
Is that something that is added to a pan? Or is a 6 quart baffled pan something I would buy? I read someplace about just running an extra quart in the engine so as not to starve the engine. Also, enlarging oil passages and maybe a high volume oil pump????

I have so many more questions. I would like to find someone here locally that knows as much as you guys about these engines.
Any of you guys near Des Moines??
Thanks
turq-66

The Autolite carbs can be made to work pretty well. A decent Holley - 735 or 770 - simply will work better from a performance perspective with less effort. Don't get the cheapest Holley - the ones with non-adjustable floats are to be avoided.

Your heads can be fixed. As noted earlier, there is a "tipping point" somewhere around a thousand dollars where it just makes more sense to go to the Edelbrocks for a touch under $1500. There is a certain charm to having original iron, but the Eds have more potential down the road and they are completely new...

For a performance intake that looks like an original part you should consider the Blue Thunder. Its a dual plane with performance on a par with the Edelbrock Performer RPM - but it looks just like a Ford part with no visible logos. Costs more - but likely a better bet than a PI given the likelihood of finding a nice one these days.

Degreeing the cam is a process of verification - making certain that the cam opening and closing events are where they belong in reference to the crankshaft. You use a degree wheel - a dinner plate sized item with markings in degrees - and a dial indicator to see when the valve actually moves open and closed. Most often things are plenty good enough for a street vehicle right out of the box, altough errors can be found. In a race car this stuff becomes critical.

Last time I sold a set the cast iron headers were running around $750 +/- 100... Lots nicer than headers on something like a Galaxie. The other members will have to help you on what year fits what...

Barry Rabotnick
Survivalmotorsports.com