This thread is being recycled from a short piece posted with the "PHOTO OF THE DAY", and expanded upon, becuase I thought there were some points that needed to be retained on The Forum, and discussed amoung the group.

In this changing world of electronic media and trendy TV shows that cut up elegant old architecture and paint perfectly good wood carpentry for a whim (and to make copy for their TV series) we have to pause and be careful about thinking this is the right thing to do (on our own homes and on our classic boats).

Have you seen the TV series, with a couple opinionated interior designer types flashing computer generated images onto their laptops in front of amazed home owners, who then do the impssible make-over in a few days, much to the astonishment of their star-struck clients? Well I've watched a few of those shows and I couldn't BELIEVE how they butchered up some perfectly good craftsman style homes and apartments that took SOMEONE a heck of a lot of time, skill, and care to build in the first place.

It is just inconscionable for someone to do some of what I've seen on TV, and it is worse if the mind-set is taken to a classic boat. If you must, please buy a more contemporary Carver or Sea Ray, or even a Burnscaraft, and chop away, but please don't do it to a classic Commander.

Cracking a can of paint is often the "painting sickness" that brings instant satisfaction but can mess up more good woodwork than two months of sanding would ever be able to fix. Ask Matt O'Donnell. His beautifully finished original condition 1967 38 Commander Express sure looks good today, but Matt was the guy who had to strip and sand off all the paint some ill advised previous owner decided slop all over the solid mahogany interior on CHANGING CHANNELS. This may sound like a lot of work, and it is, but even then it is a lot easier said than done. Chris Craft used SOLID MAHOGANY LUMBER on these boats, much of which is exposed and finished, and much of the unseen wood holding up the galley and the floors is also mahogany. Chris Craft also used a premium mahogany veneer plywood that was so stringent it was identified as "Chris Craft Grade". That veeneer plywood is used on wide areas such as the bulkhead enclosure around the front V-berth on an Express like Matt's, and also the flatwork around the head. If you sand through that fine looking premium veneer during your restoration work, you have a blemish that is near impossible to fix, so extreme care is in order. I don't know how Matt did it, but his work is awesome, and it undoubtedly comes from his long term family association with wood boats. The O'Donell family owns many Lyman boats, some of which are true museum pieces. It is no wonder Matt fell in love with the classic interior of the early Express, as it has so much wood inside you really don't know if you are on a wood or fiberglass boat when you are aboard.

Here are interior shots of CHANGING CHANNELS, they speak volumes for themselves.





I need to install the same mahogany edge trim on my dinette table like Matt did, as my original formica is peeling and there is a small piece missing.

Now we go to later classics that don't have wood interiors, and they are just as classic, classy, and valuable, and just as much care and appreciation needs to go to those boats as well. Obviously, synthetic wall coverings are not as rich as solid wood, however, they still have much to do with the classic nature of the boats. Many of these original interiors are elegant, light, functional, and in keeping with the era of the boat. Some people have elected to install solid wood interiors over the formica and wall coverings found on these boats, and if the workmanship is good then it turns out as an enhancement. We don't have problems with ENHANCEMENTS, but we do have problems with chop jobs. I know the word "ehnancement" is sort of an undefined term, as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I'm sure Elvis thought those gaudy interiors at Graceland were cool. Restraint is in order. Just take your time, realize what you have, and resist the trendy "make over" mentality. Keep the "classic Commander mentality" and then have your fun. I will say this about the later interiors, my parents have a beautifully maintained 31' Sedan with light formica grained interior. It looks like "blonded wood", and we have NEVER given any thought about cladding in in wood (or painting it). It suits the nature of the boat perfectly, and my Mom loves it! So does everyone else.

On my own 1966 Express, someone had slopped several coats of varnish onto the interior wood work. It was all there, but the guy never heard about using a tack rag or a clean brush. It was horrible. With much care and a hand held wood block wrapped with fine sandpaper, I took the runs and all the crappy varnish off the surface, never even reaching bare wood. I then refinished the intire interior with a multitude of layers of wipe on furniture grade poly, and lightly sanded in between coats until I brought the woodwork back to presentable condition. I used satin on mine, because I didn't want the glare, and I also thought it might hide any blemishes that remained. Matt used gloss on his, and his work is so good the gloss looks very fine. Either one works, your situation may dictate one or another if you're doing the same.

Here is a photo of how mine came out. That photo by the way, on the wall, is my 1957 Hercules powered Chris proudly docked at an all-sailboat marina. They were not too happy to have a noisy fume belching beast like that, but hey, they got over it, ha.

More on my interior woodwork refinishing can be found here.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/424840/message/1131059156

I had a situation onboard TRADITION that was unnerving. My old Princess range was so abused, the door was spring, broken internally, and rusted badly. The door would slam down during a cruise, and anyone inside would be startled, and the Captain often thought he just hit a log. We solved the problem with duct tape one day and I knew something had to be done. So in the absence of a nice original aqua range in my Commander, I decided to install a Force 10 range. This made Janet very happy, but it was a LOT more work and expense than I intended. I decided to mount the top of the range perfectly flat against the top of new granite, and then we decided to add a Franke stainless sink to boot, and then new plumbing hardware, and the project spirialed out of control cost wise. We worked hard to give an upgraded feel without detracting from the classic nature of the boat. Here is a photo of the finished work.


Because of the perfectly flat transition between the stainless top of the range and the granite, you can place a wine glass anywhere on the entire surface without fear of it tipping over. That was a small functional benefit of the upgrade as well. Since the photo was taken, a steam bent trim piece of solid mahogany was placed onto the frontal edge of that exposed formica. The refrigerator (also not standard, due to the old one dying a horrible death to rust and mold) is due to be cladd in mahogany veneer.

Numerous other tips on refinishing, galley upgrades, installation of mini blinds, interior lights, baramoters and clocks, etc., can be found at the following link.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/503931/thread/1149537752






Recycled info from Christmas, December 25, 2008:

If you are a regular here on the one and only Chris Craft Commander Forum, Inc., youll know we are very strong on originality, but we do acknowledge and appreciate those restorations and upgrades that have been done with a sensitive eye to a classic boat.

We STRONGLY recommend against TV type trendy remodeling or casual cracking of paint cans when it comes to working on classic boats. There are many examples chronicled here on The Forum, showing off careful detail to originality, but also careful attention to modern upgrades. Jay Meyerson, for instance, did a near complete upgrade to his classic 35 Sports Cruiser, and you cant even tell by looking at the boat that it is literally LOADED with electronics, new motors and various other upgrades. This represents the best possible treatment to a well worn classic boat, if indeed, the boat is going to be upgraded instead of restored. Many of us do a combination of restoration and upgrade. Motors wear out, motors break, many times a repower makes sense, however, those who bite the bullet and do faithful rebuilds of original motors are able to have a little more provenance aboard their boats, and many times they save a bundle of dollars doing so. Its a personal choice that has to be given to each boat, based upon its individual situation, and how the owner intends to run the boat. There is no steadfast answer to repowering.

When it comes to original mahogany interiors there is a pretty steadfast rule, and that is do NOT crack a can of paint. Those Commander owners who are fortunate to have original mahogany interiors are pretty much compelled to keep them, unless they are so worn they cant be suitably refinished. Anyone who paints original mahogany has judgement well simply have to question here. It just should not be done.

Now here is an interesting dilemma. You find an old Commander, the hull is as we would expect it to be, your basic bullet-proof chunk of resin and fiberglass, but the rest of the boat is trashed. In a situation like this all bets are off regarding originality. Many times its going to be darn near impossible to bring the boat back to a stage of originality, and the owner is better off buying an original boat if they want one. Boats like this are good candidates for sensitive upgrades. Warren Pateman is a great example, who bought a totally trashed out 38 Commander and rebuilt it from stem to stern, in a modern but very sensitive manner. Check out this thread, its a how to if you have such a boat and have the cash to do it right. While we appreciate originality first and foremost, we do appreciate people who are able to bring back derelicts like this and do it well. Looking at this Commander, its still all Commander, and in that regard this is a very successful recycling of a classic icon.


Warren Pateman stripped this trashed Commander down to the bare glass inside and out, and rebuilt EVERYTHING. It still looks like a well kept 38 Commander! It all comes down to the responsibility of owing a classic, and what decisions you make. Warren obviously made a lot of right decisions, his work serves as "the standard" for the "total rebuild", and although it is not like the original, it is to be greatly respected and admired.

When you realize what sins of the previous owners Warren had to deal with, nobody would ever begrudge the fact that he did a total make-over.










Here is Warren's classic after total rebuiding of EVERYTHING, and keeping the character of the original boat. Warren spent the better of a half million dollars on this boat, and quite frankly, it shows!


Here is Matt O'Donnel's original CHANGING CHANNELS, which has to be one of the best condition original 38 Express models still existing in the Commander fleet. There is a LOT to be said about originality when it comes to classic boats.


In the end, big dollar boats like this are the exception, few of us have the cash or are willing to sink the better part of a half million dollars into a 38 Commander. Side by side, BAMBI up against a stellar 38 maintained in original condition, BAMBI will look good, but the original boat also gets the serious nod.

Regards,

Paul

My 36' CC SF looks to be painted an almondish color. I am wondering if under all of that paint if there is mahogany? I also ponder if this was the original look for the SF. Maybe it was intended for low maintenance.

I may try and scrape off some paint and see what lies beneith. I hve scraped some pain off and I can not tell what is under there.

I want to keep the look time specific for the most part.

RE

Hi Reece, I have at least one resource that suggests the interior was "hand rubbed teak", but as model production progressed and ownership of the company changed, so did the specs from the previous years.



Find a spot where scraping won't show and check it out!

regards,

Paul

Here are photos from the archives, but I'll bet this one has been painted, not sure.







Paul

Those interior pictures are of my 1971 35' Sports Cruiser. I have started a "little" project on the interior which will probably span several years. I've started to strip the white paint off the wood trim. What I've found under the paint is nice mahogany wood. I got into this project at the very end of the season, so I haven't made much progress. There's a lot of trim, so I'm going to tackle one section at a time.

The hand-rubbed teak in the brochure looks like what my neighbors with 1979 45' Commanders have in their interiors. I think it's a teak veneer that's hand rubbed with teak oil.

Mike Schrage
Hooz-A-Bum
1971 35' Chris Craft Commander Sports Cruiser

Mike, from the archives, now I have your interior properly tagged! Thanks for the confirmation. Sure would be cool if Reece found mahogany or teak aboard FANDANGO!

Hope all is well with you and Therese!

Regards,

Paul and Janet

Hi Mike, How did you remove the white paint? I'd like to do the same with my 36 in the fwd cabin. Any advice? Any pictures of teh work so far? Thanks

I've been removing the paint with Strip-Eez, wire brushes, and patience. I have a few pictures somewhere that I'll try to get posted once I find them. I brought the cupboard doors and drawers home to work on over the winter... I'll take a couple pictures of them.

Mike
Hooz-A-Bum

This one belongs to Jay Meyerson, not sure if the interior was redone, original, painted, blonded or what, but it looked darn nice. You can see a wood grain there, and it looks almost identical to yours, Mike.



Regards,

Paul

Reece, We are both on the same page. I had a chance to sleep on my 36 the other night, wow that full headroom all the way forward makes a huge differance. Nothing against the 38 which has to be my all time favorite but I'm sooooo glad I have the 36. Much of my interior is painted an off white but looks like there could be a nice wood below but all the trim is teak.
I may try to explore the wood under the paint also but it may take a week or two. I also found a 3 ring binder with original paperwork, engine wiring diagrams which covers 35&36, Onan manuals..etc. If you answer the wood question let us know and I'll keep in touch. thanks

I Was doing some electrical work and had to make the electrical box opening larger for the new outlet. I THINK there was some cedar in that wood. It had a cedar smell to it. (Maybe cedar lined closet?)

NOTE, If you are puttingin GFCI circuts in a CC you will need new electrical boxes. The GFCI are take up too much space in the old ones.

I did notice that there was a HUGE piece of hardwood (Mahagony?) that runs from the cockpit floor up to the fly bridge ( i assume)at about a 40% angle. I was peeking through an electrical outlet and saw this beautiful piece of wood. It looked like a 4x6 of solid hardwood.

I have a feeling that the SF models were not as dressy as the other models. I have a few pieces of plywood towards the back and I can see a football shaped know. This could be a replacement or maybe it was meant to be painted.

There is also a lot of the 'fake' wood veneer on my SF. The helm and the head are coated in this material and it is original..

Once I get my survey checklist items completed may I can check out the wood.

Reece

Paul,about Bambi s interior,what do you think the white panels are made of?
Regards
Eduardo

I've looked at those photos carefully and I see plenty of evidence of plastic laminate work, but I can not tell if the "ledge" places were just plastic laminate which they do appear to be, seeing some seams and hinges, suggesting strongly that's the case; or whether he used plastic laminate everywhere or just at ledges. Color match seems different but it's on different planes, and it could just be the light.

Warren was a very practical guy, good head on his shoulders, a true boating enthusiast of the first degree (serving on two Americas Cup Race Committees) and I wish I could ask him now, but sadly he's gone. I suppos you could use a VWC (vinyl wall covering) but once that is scuffed, you're stuck with a tear or rip. I think it's all plastic laminate. The fear of delamination in the marine environment could be dealt with by using the right adhesive on top of the right substrate (marine plywood). I would never waste my time doing any carpentry on a boat unless I used the proper lumber and/or marine plywood. On the repairs of my Skiff projct, mainly in the floor structure, I used a white oak because I know CC used steam bent white oak for their frames in the wood Sea Skiffs. I thought that if it would work there, it would surely work for my floor structure after being coated with a good marine bilge paint.

You may have access to mahogany lumber, in which case it may be better if you have such repairs. For any new flatwork you do, please do yourself a favor and get marine plywood. It just might save you a world of aggrivation. There is nothing quite as bad as seeing a project you did, coming apart because you skimped. Sadly, this is the voice of experience. People do learn from failure. Engineering was also done that way. After a few bridges collapsed and a few boilers exploded, people began getting the idea!

Yes, I think Warren probably used a nice satin or pebble grain plastic laminate. The stuff is incredibly durable, it is easily cleaned, and from my association with him, corresponding on numerous issues from business, world politics, development, etc., I think he probably used a p-lam. The manner in which he did was totally modern. He took a shell of a hull and basically "built the boat around it", inside, out, motors, new everything. The end result is admittedly pretty stunning, and the boat still lives in Australia under different (lucky) ownership. You could never find something like that unless it was a labor of love someone took upon themselves to do, like Warren did, and like many of us (you too) have done or are in the process of doing.

regards,

Paul

In historic preservation, homes and buildings change and deteriorate with time. We realize you can't do a "pristine restoration" of everything. Properties that are structurally sound but worn out or altered extensively undergo a process of selective demolition where desirable features and materials are retained, but the properties are "gutted" and rebuilt. They then become thoroughly practical for modern living. Been to Savannah? Only a very few "pristine restorations there..VERY few. Can't tell it from the street..the exteriors retain the look and charm of the original. Once inside, they are modern..either retaining trim and doors and other desirable architectural elements, or complete clean sheet remodels with ultra-modern designs.

This is the fate of many boats such as Commanders. The interior in Jerrys' to be boat was in pretty shabby shape, and the controls and electric were pretty bad. However, the hull was very solid and unmolested. The PERFECT candidate for a complete renovation, including a different interior. Personally, I prefer some modernization of interior spaces, with touches of the original to remind you of where you are. Frankly, while functional, those original interiors were notable pretty much for the wood used rather than the layout. Some good looking Mahogany in a few places retains that old school Chris Craft look. Included in Jerrys boat is some original mahogany to be remilled and reused..not just mahogany, but ORIGINAL mahogany. Upon completion he can say.."This mahogany was part of the original interior".

Time and SALT WATER take their tolls. This environment also requires that everything works flawlessly. NEVER use any existing wire. Replace all thru-hulls. hoses, and seacocks. You may want to keep an original seacock, clean and polish it, and say "This is an original seacock" while the new safe ones are installed below your new insulated floor.

This total rebuilding is a trend I think we'll see more of. To date, I've seen alot of Bertrams treated in this manner, to the extent the cap was separated from the hull. When finished, they LOOK like classic Bertrams. Inside, they're functionally modern and ready for another 30-40 years service.

ALL:
I was overly anxious to get the Summer Palace in the water and get started on her when I first got her. I am incredibly lucky she did not sink. Getting her towed and back on the hard where I could work on her was the first best thing I did. I thought that the old bronze would still be good. After taking the first throughhull apart, I changed my mind and every through hull and bronze fitting on her. 40 years is a long time. The boat from Bill will get the same treatment. No need to hurry. I have especially enjoyed Paul posting the advertisements of the first years of production and how the designers placed the interiors.

Boat manufactors used the most modern products they could, when they built the boats new. Formica was one of those in the Sixty's. I like the beauty of wood so I changed the perfectly good formica covered galley table on Summer Palace to a more salty looking one with a chess board in the center. It looks good on the ole girl, or will one of these days! I am happy that Bill did all the hard work of gutting the 31 footer. There are always decisions on what to leave and what to take out. I like what Bill said about opening her up a little. I will have to sit in her for a while before I decide what to do, but I am pretty sure I will stay along the original plans as Paul posted, but upgrade as much as possible.

One of the lessons I have learned here in Iraq is how important water is. I will most certainly have water makers in my boats from now on. RO looked like the way to go, but filters eventually fill. Condensation units look very promising and maybe combined with a filtering system. A lot less tankage is needed. Power? That is what a generator is for. Wind generators on a motor boat? Why not? Redunducy is not a bad thing. Microwave ovens? Electronics? Well I could go on and on. We all know a good thing when we we see it. Reminds me of the poem about Pet milk in a can when it first came out:
"No teat to pull,
No hay to pitch,
Just punch a hole,
in the Son of a .....!"

The CCC hulls are like that. A good thing when we see it. Function. The rest is as Bill said: "A canvas waiting for the touch of the artist and his pallet."
Jerry at the point of the spear, in this case 2- 427s spears.

As Bill said, a blank canvas for you! It's the kind of project everyone wants to do at least once in their lifetime, good clean fun Jerry! Keeps you off the streets too!

Paul

Paul:
With your eye as an architect, and considering the posts of the original scans for the 31, which to my eye seems bow heavy with deck housing, and taking into account your comments and pics regarding the galaxies, doesn't the piece from the top deck (that the fly bridge sits on) sloping back to the maain deck just beg or call out for something to be attached to it like a jumping dolphin, given that these were to be sporty fishing craft? This piece would have to act as an accent to the rest of the canvas, mohogany handrail top, etc. on the finished product? Remember the faux softtop folding hardware on hurses?
Jerry at the point of the spear.

Hi Jerry,

I took a look at the boat again after seeing your note, and the only thing I can think of would be those "Landau Irons" they used on the T-birds and LTDs, sorta thing. However, I think that nice piece of slanted Galaxie type side roof begs to be left alone, so here's some professional advice: "Lose the Dolphin idea", ha!

The boat is a bit bow heavy in a way, but the overall balance of the boat makes up for it nicely. This is one beautiful design.



Hang in there buddy, you'll be back on the water soon!


regards, all the best,

Paul

Paul:
Yeah, well, maybe the dolphins are a bit too much. But I am sure I saw a lake in the distance when I looked across the sand today, although it was pretty hot.

AND, now that you mention it, IF there were several good looking ladies leaning against the after rail, the eye would be attracted to them and the issue of the boat appearing to be bow heavy or not, would be moot.

Jerry,

There ARE much more effective adornments for a Commander. Any thought of Dolphin embellishment should be re-directed to the real adornment that makes a difference, as you hinted at in your post. Naturally any finished brightwork is high on the list, and as you know I'm very high on varnished teak as the ultimate jewelry aboard a Commander.........with one exception being better.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/424840/message/1168224725

Regards,

Paul

ALL:
I just got checked out at the medics tent. Bad news. They diagnosed the boatitus right off... splinters of wood still in the hand, varnish stains around the fingernails, etc. and then the bad news.... I have sand on the brain. Yes, it true. It seems like I am being forced to take home leave for 2 to 3 weeks. I know this will aggrivate my boatitus something terrible, but Chris Wade may be able to help me during the pitched fever stage.

Sand on the brain? The only cure is to hang around boatyards until the high humidity softens the crust enough that the sand can flow out the ears.
Jerry - not ready to lay down the spear.

Jerry have strength soldier we will be talkin' Commanders more and more in the near future. Being in the desert most certainly would set the boatitus symtoms in overdrive, but the snow and ice hear in Central Ohio sucks too! Thankfully I can duck out to the ship shop eeeeeeer cabinet shop that is out behind the house and get my mind right! Should be making the prerequisite phone calls soon so that we can move forward with or interstate parts swapping and bullshipping! :)CW

PS, may I suggest you take out the frustration on some bad guys, with diplomacy and restraint of course...